NYC Midnight : Creative Writing & Screenwriting Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > GENERAL DISCUSSION > Creative Writing Corner
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - When your story spans the years
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

When your story spans the years

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
MichelleK View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichelleK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When your story spans the years
    Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 10:45am
Hello, writers.
 
I seem to be caught in a pattern. The last three stories I have written for this contest have all spanned at least a decade. I get an idea, get into the story, and significant events from the characters' lives come to me and I want to include then. My stories have been: event(s)...fast forward...event(s)...fast forward...event(s)... well, you get the picture Smile
 
I suppose some of the information could be relayed through flashback, but I think that too many flashbacks isn't the best choice either. Maybe I just need to axe some of it.
 
The good news is that all three stories are projects that I plan to expand, so I hope this issue will at least partly go away when I'm not limited by a word count. Still, I want to do well in the competition, and it is something that the judges have pointed out, so I'd love to hear what other writers think.
 
Thanks!
Back to Top
fsenese View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Location: Appalachia
Status: Offline
Points: 483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsenese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 10:53am
The story has to fit with your word count. I saw a flash once that recounted an entire lifetime in under a thousand words, in a series of lightning-flashes, and it was awesome. And check out Hemingway's "A Very Short Story" for more of that. Years pass in two pages, and it works.

But that's not what you wanted to do with your story. You were world-building, and that's tough to do in under 2500 words. You don't have the room for a lot of scenes on top of that. A flashback requires a trigger scene or event, too, and then something that eases the reader back into the present, and that can really eat a lot of words if you're not careful. It can be too much. I'd say three scenes are pushing it for 2500 words; two scenes are better, and one scene can be great, if it's a complex scene. You get at most ONE flashback in a story of this length.

These aren't rules. As Captain Barbossa says, they're more what you'd call "guidelines."

I do everything I can to avoid flashbacks, but sometimes they're necessary. One trick is to have a memory framed by or inserted directly into a current conversation, but I've discovered the hard way that's a very risky thing to do, and I will avoid it at all costs in the future. Obviously what's essential is that you transition in and out of the flashback as smoothly, clearly, and quickly as possible, without losing the reader.

Check out that Raymond Carver book we were chatting about the other day---HE'S DOING IT RIGHT for this story length.




Edited by fsenese - 26 Mar 2015 at 11:21am
Back to Top
MichelleK View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichelleK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 11:18am
Thanks, fsense.
 
I have ordered the Carver book and will read the Hemmingway.
 
It's always good to learn from those who have done what you are trying to do and have done it well.
Back to Top
mrjaywilson View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Addict
NYC Midnight Addict
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrjaywilson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 12:29pm
Sometimes, you just need the background in a story. Sometimes, there's no way around it. Most times, you don't need it, though. Trying to decide which is which is the hard part. Does the reader really need to know something? Depends on how much of an impact that idea has on the story and if it really matters at all.

 

I don't like a lot of back-story (or too much world building) in short stories (especially at the beginning). When writers do it, I feel like they're dragging me through that muddy swamp from The Neverending Story. Typically, the only writers that can get away with this are well-established writers where you know you're going to get something good at the end, so you suffer through it. Even then, it's not all that fun to read (in my opinion).

 

The general rule of short story telling is to start the story as close to the end as possible. If you really believe you have to start in the 1800s when the story actually takes place in 2015, then it's not really a short story.

 

Short story: a story with a fully developed theme but significantly shorter and --->less elaborate<--- than a novel.

 

A lot of people forget that you don't really have to build and entire world when writing science fiction or fantasy. You simply have convey just enough information to let the reader know they aren't supposed to think of it as their world. Short stories are supposed to be quick entertainment, so adding a bunch of back-story and world building doesn't usually help with that.

 

Most of the time when I see short stories with world building, the whole thing can be summed into one succinct paragraph or, better yet, peppered cleverly throughout the story. Writers have to think about the story and less about how cool an idea is and how much they want the reader to experience it. Any writer that can do that can survive a science fiction or fantasy short story with ease.

 

So, how do you pepper it throughout? By making absolutely every word count. Showing how something is different without telling the reader it’s different. People live on Earth. Here. They know how our world works. This means they know when you’re twisting what they know and turning it into a different world. They often don’t need to know why something is different, only be convinced that it is a difference. Mad props to any clever writer than can bamboozle the reader into thinking they know a world without having actually read anything about it. One that created the world, and then the narrator makes the reader feel like a part of the story, as if they’d been living in that world this whole time but never wrote anything about it.

.

I think the best way to learn to do that is to write a bunch of 500 word short stories, and force yourself to relay information to the readers without doing any back-story. Write 10 or 20 or 50 pages of back story and world-building. Then, start writing little independent stories (force yourself to do them no bigger than 500 words) that draw from that back-story, but can be understood without the reader reading your back-story. Practice that and learn the difference between info-dumping and carefully selected prose. I guarantee that after a couple of months of daily 500-word SF/F stories, you’ll be able craft amazing SF/F shorts in 2,000 words like a pro.

Of course, this is all just my opinion... I could be completely wrong. *shrug*

Back to Top
MichelleK View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichelleK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 1:06pm
Good points, mrjaywilson.
 
I think 500 word stories sounds like a good exercise.
Back to Top
jenspenden View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Location: Denver, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jenspenden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 2:39pm
I agree with everything Fsenese and mrjaywilson said. 

After nine rounds in NYCM, these have become my main "guidelines" for writing stories under 2,500 words: 

1) Choose one main "event" and focus the story around that. Ex: spreading a killer virus, having a (specific) confrontation, boarding an airplane, being attacked, etc. 

2) Don't time/scene hop more than twice. Honestly, I try not to hop around at all. The narrower my focus, the deeper I can go into the plot and characters. (Jay said it best about starting the story as close to the end as possible--that's perfect, in my opinion). 

3) Don't use more than four named characters. After four, it becomes confusing.  

4) If it doesn't add to the story or push it forward, chop it! 

Again, these are my personal guidelines. They won't apply to everyone since we all have our own styles. But, overall, I've found they work well. 


Edited by jenspenden - 26 Mar 2015 at 2:40pm
Back to Top
mrjaywilson View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Addict
NYC Midnight Addict
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrjaywilson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by jenspenden jenspenden wrote:

1) Choose one main "event" and focus the story around that. Ex: spreading a killer virus, having a (specific) confrontation, boarding an airplane, being attacked, etc. 

3) Don't use more than four named characters. After four, it becomes confusing.  


I completely forgot about #3, good call there Jen. That's a really big one. As for choosing one big main even and keeping it narrow, consider reading Jen's R1 horror. She did a really good job having a huge idea contained in such a short span of time, slowly releasing info as needed about the world as it changes so the reader doesn't get Info-Dump Syndrome. The writer equivalent of IBS. lol
Back to Top
yttrus View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 517
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yttrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by jenspenden jenspenden wrote:

3) Don't use more than four named characters. After four, it becomes confusing. 


Unless it's a comedy!  A lot of characters in a short space in comedy makes for some great dialogue :3
Back to Top
MichelleK View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichelleK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:19pm
A lot of good suggestions. I have read Jenna's Round 1 and concur that she did it very well!  
 
Maybe some of my ideas just haven't been right for the contest. It usually takes me a while before I get one that I am excited enough about to actually start writing, so I tend to not want to start over when the story starts to get too big.
 
It's all learning, I suppose, and I'm happy that these contests have given me stories and characters that I wouldn't have had without them.
Back to Top
jenspenden View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Location: Denver, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jenspenden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:39pm
@mrjaywilson: Thanks! I really appreciate that Smile

@yttrus: You're right! Thinking about it, my political satire last fall had more characters than my "guidelines" allow for...It must be a comedy thing, hahaha

@Michelle: Your ideas are great! But, rather than taking the "novel" approach to them ("This happens, and then this, and then this..."), take the short story approach ("This happens."). Ex: In your R2 story: Fast forward so it begins with Katie at the university. Start with her hiding her artwork from Brett when he arrives to walk to class with her, and end it with her learning the truth about the shot everyone received...Really, the whole story could take place in the span of one hour...Hope that all made sense, lol. 


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.211 seconds.