When your story spans the years
Printed From: NYC Midnight : Creative Writing & Screenwriting
Category: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Forum Name: Creative Writing Corner
Forum Description: Discuss NYC Midnight Creative Writing Competitions or Creative Writing in general.
URL: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10450
Printed Date: 26 Mar 2026 at 10:44pm
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Topic: When your story spans the years
Posted By: MichelleK
Subject: When your story spans the years
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 10:45am
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Hello, writers. I seem to be caught in a pattern. The last three stories I have written for this contest have all spanned at least a decade. I get an idea, get into the story, and significant events from the characters' lives come to me and I want to include then. My stories have been: event(s)...fast forward...event(s)...fast forward...event(s)... well, you get the picture  I suppose some of the information could be relayed through flashback, but I think that too many flashbacks isn't the best choice either. Maybe I just need to axe some of it. The good news is that all three stories are projects that I plan to expand, so I hope this issue will at least partly go away when I'm not limited by a word count. Still, I want to do well in the competition, and it is something that the judges have pointed out, so I'd love to hear what other writers think. Thanks! ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Replies:
Posted By: fsenese
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 10:53am
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The story has to fit with your word count. I saw a flash once that recounted an entire lifetime in under a thousand words, in a series of lightning-flashes, and it was awesome. And check out Hemingway's "A Very Short Story" for more of that. Years pass in two pages, and it works. But that's not what you wanted to do with your story. You were world-building, and that's tough to do in under 2500 words. You don't have the room for a lot of scenes on top of that. A flashback requires a trigger scene or event, too, and then something that eases the reader back into the present, and that can really eat a lot of words if you're not careful. It can be too much. I'd say three scenes are pushing it for 2500 words; two scenes are better, and one scene can be great, if it's a complex scene. You get at most ONE flashback in a story of this length. These aren't rules. As Captain Barbossa says, they're more what you'd call "guidelines." I do everything I can to avoid flashbacks, but sometimes they're necessary. One trick is to have a memory framed by or inserted directly into a current conversation, but I've discovered the hard way that's a very risky thing to do, and I will avoid it at all costs in the future. Obviously what's essential is that you transition in and out of the flashback as smoothly, clearly, and quickly as possible, without losing the reader. Check out that Raymond Carver book we were chatting about the other day---HE'S DOING IT RIGHT for this story length. ------------- https://twitter.com/fsenese" rel="nofollow - @fsenese http://fredsenese.com" rel="nofollow - website |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 11:18am
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Thanks, fsense. It's always good to learn from those who have done what you are trying to do and have done it well. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: mrjaywilson
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 12:29pm
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Sometimes,
you just need the background in a story. Sometimes, there's no way around it. Most
times, you don't need it, though. Trying to decide which is which is the hard
part. Does the reader really need to know something? Depends on how much of an
impact that idea has on the story and if it really matters at all.
I don't
like a lot of back-story (or too much world building) in short stories
(especially at the beginning). When writers do it, I feel like they're dragging
me through that muddy swamp from The Neverending Story. Typically, the only
writers that can get away with this are well-established writers where you know
you're going to get something good at the end, so you suffer through it. Even
then, it's not all that fun to read (in my opinion).
The
general rule of short story telling is to start the story as close to the end
as possible. If you really believe you have to start in the 1800s when the
story actually takes place in 2015, then it's not really a short story.
Short
story: a story with a fully developed theme but significantly shorter and
--->less elaborate<--- than a novel.
A lot of
people forget that you don't really have to build and entire world when writing
science fiction or fantasy. You simply have convey just enough information to
let the reader know they aren't supposed to think of it as their world. Short
stories are supposed to be quick entertainment, so adding a bunch of back-story
and world building doesn't usually help with that.
Most of
the time when I see short stories with world building, the whole thing can be
summed into one succinct paragraph or, better yet, peppered cleverly throughout
the story. Writers have to think about the story and less about how cool an
idea is and how much they want the reader to experience it. Any writer that can
do that can survive a science fiction or fantasy short story with ease.
So, how do
you pepper it throughout? By making absolutely every word count. Showing how
something is different without telling the reader it’s different. People live
on Earth. Here. They know how our world works. This means they know when you’re
twisting what they know and turning it into a different world. They often don’t
need to know why something is different, only be convinced that it is a
difference. Mad props to any clever writer than can bamboozle the reader into
thinking they know a world without having actually read anything about it. One
that created the world, and then the narrator makes the reader feel like a part
of the story, as if they’d been living in that world this whole time but never
wrote anything about it. . I think the
best way to learn to do that is to write a bunch of 500 word short stories, and
force yourself to relay information to the readers without doing any back-story.
Write 10 or 20 or 50 pages of back story and world-building. Then, start
writing little independent stories (force yourself to do them no bigger than
500 words) that draw from that back-story, but can be understood without the
reader reading your back-story. Practice that and learn the difference between
info-dumping and carefully selected prose. I guarantee that after a couple of
months of daily 500-word SF/F stories, you’ll be able craft amazing SF/F shorts
in 2,000 words like a pro. ------------- http://bit.ly/1L0oxdw" rel="nofollow - RD1 H51: War of the Cupcakes (Comedy) |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 1:06pm
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Good points, mrjaywilson. I think 500 word stories sounds like a good exercise. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: jenspenden
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 2:39pm
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I agree with everything Fsenese and mrjaywilson said. After nine rounds in NYCM, these have become my main "guidelines" for writing stories under 2,500 words: 1) Choose one main "event" and focus the story around that. Ex: spreading a killer virus, having a (specific) confrontation, boarding an airplane, being attacked, etc. 2) Don't time/scene hop more than twice. Honestly, I try not to hop around at all. The narrower my focus, the deeper I can go into the plot and characters. (Jay said it best about starting the story as close to the end as possible--that's perfect, in my opinion). 3) Don't use more than four named characters. After four, it becomes confusing. 4) If it doesn't add to the story or push it forward, chop it! Again, these are my personal guidelines. They won't apply to everyone since we all have our own styles. But, overall, I've found they work well.
------------- https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic67229_post715602.html#715602" rel="nofollow - SSC R1: Remember Us, Remember Everything |
Posted By: mrjaywilson
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 2:59pm
I completely forgot about #3, good call there Jen. That's a really big one. As for choosing one big main even and keeping it narrow, consider reading Jen's R1 horror. She did a really good job having a huge idea contained in such a short span of time, slowly releasing info as needed about the world as it changes so the reader doesn't get Info-Dump Syndrome. The writer equivalent of IBS. lol ------------- http://bit.ly/1L0oxdw" rel="nofollow - RD1 H51: War of the Cupcakes (Comedy) |
jenspenden wrote:Posted By: yttrus
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:07pm
Unless it's a comedy! A lot of characters in a short space in comedy makes for some great dialogue :3 ------------- http://www.christinaescamilla.com" rel="nofollow - Christinaescamilla.com http://www.writespacehouston.org/" rel="nofollow - Writespace.org |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:19pm
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A lot of good suggestions. I have read Jenna's Round 1 and concur that she did it very well! Maybe some of my ideas just haven't been right for the contest. It usually takes me a while before I get one that I am excited enough about to actually start writing, so I tend to not want to start over when the story starts to get too big. It's all learning, I suppose, and I'm happy that these contests have given me stories and characters that I wouldn't have had without them. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: jenspenden
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:39pm
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@mrjaywilson: Thanks! I really appreciate that @yttrus: You're right! Thinking about it, my political satire last fall had more characters than my "guidelines" allow for...It must be a comedy thing, hahaha @Michelle: Your ideas are great! But, rather than taking the "novel" approach to them ("This happens, and then this, and then this..."), take the short story approach ("This happens."). Ex: In your R2 story: Fast forward so it begins with Katie at the university. Start with her hiding her artwork from Brett when he arrives to walk to class with her, and end it with her learning the truth about the shot everyone received...Really, the whole story could take place in the span of one hour...Hope that all made sense, lol. ------------- https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic67229_post715602.html#715602" rel="nofollow - SSC R1: Remember Us, Remember Everything |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:50pm
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Good suggestions, Jenna! I'll definitely play with them on re-write. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: fsenese
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 3:56pm
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Michelle, I have to differ with Jen here---I think your story needs two scenes; a before and an after. Your story (like my first round story) centers on a transformation, and that's the absolute minimum you need to show it convincingly. In the first scene she's artist Katie at odds with the system (the scene where Brett rebuffs her, with their previous encounters implied or maybe reminisced). In the second scene she's scientist-Katie, and she joyfully embraces the system that oppressed artist-Katie. You need some significant amount time to pass between those two scenes or the turn won't be as strong as you need it to be.
I think most of the story should be the first scene; the last scene should be much shorter or it'll drain away the impact. It'll be tricky, because the two scenes have to be an organic whole. Artist-Katie has to be miserable, and that has to make her "rebirth" as scientist-Katie unexpected but inevitable (in hindsight). Just my two cents.
------------- https://twitter.com/fsenese" rel="nofollow - @fsenese http://fredsenese.com" rel="nofollow - website |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 4:25pm
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Hi, fsenese. Your expanded first round happened over a fairly long portion of time, and I think you did it well. I think the emails were a good device for your story. You let us know right away that there would be many and that they would cover her year in America. As for Katie, I think I like the ending where it is, her giving in to the system. What I want to play up is the emotional conflict of her being in a society she doesn't fit into, and finally deciding she just wants to feel the peace that everyone else does. Kind of an amped-up version of being at a dinner party where everyone else disagrees with your politics or something like that. Or even being in high school and doing things you don't feel good about to fit in with the cool kids. Sometimes, it's just easier shut up and go along. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the right thing :) Anyway, I appreciate everyone's insight. I don't know that there is truly a right answer, but weighing these different approaches definitely helps me as a writer. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: mrjaywilson
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 4:42pm
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I think we'd all have different ways of doing it, and Michelle is correct in that there really is no right answer. However, if I had written your story, Michelle, I'd have kept her as an adult, living life in the strange world she lives in, with occasional moments in which the current world in all of it's strange moments force her to reflect on her past and love for art. For me, I think starting from her now as opposed to growing up lends to a more brutal realization. We'd see her fighting and trying to make sense of everything through her memories while dealing with very real current problems, and then, in the end, finally resolving to take the pain away. It would be really dark, much darker than where you started it, though. I think you have a brilliant story idea, but--and this is just my opinion--the idea of having us go along with her through her live can be easily executed in present day. For instance, we start the story present, and she's runs into her old art friend--memories + real examples to show as it is now. Same with the boy she liked. Same with everything. her final straw being her visit to learn about Adam, and her ultimate decision to take away her own suffering. Also, you can take that as a part of my review of your story, haha... I'm gonna go put the rest of my thoughts in your story's thread. ------------- http://bit.ly/1L0oxdw" rel="nofollow - RD1 H51: War of the Cupcakes (Comedy) |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 4:47pm
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I appreciate your insight as well, mrjaywilson. So many things to consider! I look forward to reading your comments. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: fsenese
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 5:25pm
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I like your ending where it is, too. Just throwing out a few ideas to kick around... so you see it as basically a capitulation of the original character rather than a transformation necessary to adapt to her surroundings. I guess I was thinking again about Winston Smith in 1984, when he goes from his time in the Ministry of Love to meeting Julia again in the outside world. It was a punch in the gut, how he went from an enemy to an advocate of the system, and I've never forgotten it. But your story is about pressure to conform, not having one's spirit crushed by the Man. Actually I think jay's idea is great, too. ------------- https://twitter.com/fsenese" rel="nofollow - @fsenese http://fredsenese.com" rel="nofollow - website |
Posted By: mrjaywilson
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2015 at 5:38pm
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Also, I think it's important to remember that my idea centers around desperation, which might defer from your actual intent of the story--so I might be completely off base lol. It plays on the desire for all adults to return to childhood where responsibility and freedom are readily available to enjoy. It shows a congruence with our reality where we work our jobs all day and would rather do the things we enjoy instead of slaving over these jobs. I don't know if that was your intention, but I think that if you do rewrite it, you might want to emphasize that point because it's a really good one, and it'll probably hit home for a lot of people. Either way, I really enjoyed your story. ------------- http://bit.ly/1L0oxdw" rel="nofollow - RD1 H51: War of the Cupcakes (Comedy) |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2015 at 6:24pm
I need to add 1984 to my must-read list! My book of Raymond Carver stories came :) ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: MichelleK
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2015 at 6:31pm
I think that theme applies, and especially resonates with those of us on the forum. People who love to write but most likely have other day jobs to pay the bills :) ------------- https://tinyurl.com/yc5bdol9" rel="nofollow - R1H47: Remnants of Annie https://tinyurl.com/ya8xzyse" rel="nofollow - R2H47: The Veiled |
Posted By: Mari
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2015 at 12:53pm
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I love this forum! Great suggestions - I hate to admit this, but there is absolutely no method to my writing - and not a lot of thought, just a lot of fun. I'll take some of these suggestions along with me next time! Thanks everyone. ------------- http://forums.nycmidnight.com/rd1heat57ski-bum-crime-caper_topic11888.html |