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'Tis Better to Say Nothing?

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Trillian4210 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trillian4210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 8:14pm
Joe, to be clear, the emotional wreckage wasn't me. I wasn't the person to whom the critique was left. But yeah, her buddies don't like to be told that there is a way to say things that help the writer without crushing their spirit. And no, they definitely were NOT professional writers.

I think professionals have a measure of satisfacion in their work and don't feel the need to crush the "competition." :)   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sutekh137 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 5:05am
Luckily, we appear to have that here, on writers from a wide range of races, geographical locations, ages, and genders!  It's really pretty cool!

JoeK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lilafrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 6:40am
Yes, I think you're right about that, JoeK. And it's something that I admire and respect so much about this group and this competition; it's what makes this fun. And it's the reason I asked the question - I didn't want to risk damaging that fragile balance. Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. You guys are way too cool.

As I was reading your wise comments, it occurred to me that environment also counts for a lot of my own reading experience. Sometimes I can pick up something and be totally disinterested, then a week later sit down with the same piece and be fully absorbed. So maybe that's what I need to do is just wait a day or two when I encounter a piece that leaves me flat, or where I can only really focus on the areas that I feel need improvement (and thanks for that reminder - it's very important for me to remember that what I'm offering is only how I perceive the thing, not necessarily how the rest of the world would see it... turns out it actually ISN'T all about me - who knew?). Perhaps when I come back to it later, I'll be able to see it with newer, clearer eyes.

As yet I haven't commented on the story that made me ask this question, and maybe I won't. It just kinda caught me by surprise - usually I'm so engaged by some aspect of the story that I end up babbling on about this or that until my review looks like a NaNoWriMo entry (as most of you know). But this one just left me with a bunch of notes and not much upside...

So anyway, I shall employ y'all's suggestions and give it a little time, then come back to it. If still unable to view a broad enough ray of light, I'll send the author a PM. At least then I'll know that whatever I do finally end up saying, if anything, will have come from a sincere and well-thought out process of evaluation.

Again, my heartfelt and respectful thanks - your wisdom shall not be wasted!

- lilah
2016 FFC
R1, Grp 30, Ch 2 The Summer of Love
R1, Grp 30, Ch 1 The Princess The Fairy and The Boy
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linguist View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linguist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 7:38am
Trillian, Joe and Lilafrog, I've had the benefit of reviews from all three of you on several items of my work and have found in every instance your reviews were spot on, useful and always done in a classy way.

And I'm a shiver in the corner sensitive kind of writer, too, so that's saying something!

I think that receiving criticism is the hardest part of this process. I was so terrified of it, I didn't even post my first round story from the 48 hour contest. I tentatively posted round 2 and got such good feedback, I never looked back.

I have been *terribly* burned by other forums for reviewing stories. Most notably was the Zoetrope site. Good night those people are freaking brutal.

I actually entered this current short story contest SOLELY for the critiques and feedback. Now that I'm getting good usable editing ideas and breakdown of weaknesses, I'm starting to crave it. I need it to be a better writer!

So I say...be honest. But bear in mind that not everyone wants to hear the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote write4life Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 5:49am
As writers we put out babies out there to be scrutinized.  We're entering them in the Cutest Baby Contest, then someone tells us their head is a little too big, or their lips aren't full, or they just don't have enough hair, etc.  Difficult to hear, but if we're being honest, we NEED to hear all those things if we're ever going to be published.  The good news is that unlike the baby contest, we can make changes to take care of the flaws. 
 
We have to have thick skin and thrive on rejection.  We've all heard the stories of great works that have been rejected over and over before someone took a chance on them.  If we can't handle criticism, no matter how tough or "off the mark" we think it is, we should hang it up and move on to something else.   
 
My two cents....................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote londongirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 2:00pm
First of all, let me say I think the forums here are great, and the peer review seems to be conducted in a real spirit of generousity. Trillian - I've read a few of your critiques on the 2009 short stories and I would say you are harsh but fair. What's clear is that you (and lilafrog and sutekh137) take time and pay attention and give thought to your reviews and that is an important thing in itself.

To get back to the original question on this topic - to be really brutally honest, any of us who have been involved in peer review know that sometimes you read something where you think: 'Uh-oh. This person really cannot write'. And then you take a step back from that initial reaction and think: 'This person can't write right now, but that's not to say there isn't something to work with', and as a reviewer you look for that little something. Just in case.






Edited by londongirl - 31 Jan 2009 at 2:50pm
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Trillian4210 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trillian4210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 3:37pm
londongirl,

I hope I'm not too harsh. In the writing comm I hail from, I come from the land of nice. :)

As you pointed out, there is merit in EVERY story and the writer deserves to know what works as well as what doesn't. But telling someone what needs work takes up more space than does saying something is fine because the 'fine' doesn't need to be analyzed.

But if anyone would prefer I didn't leave them a review, let me know. I would rather err on the side of keeping things friendly if the person really would prefer that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lilafrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by londongirl londongirl wrote:

And then you take a step back from that initial reaction and think: 'This person can't write right now, but that's not to say there isn't something to work with', and as a reviewer you look for that little something.


Originally posted by Trillian4210 Trillian4210 wrote:

But telling someone what needs work takes up more space than does saying something is fine because the 'fine' doesn't need to be analyzed.


These two comments really comprise one answer to my original dilemma. It's that second reaction of londongirl's that I needed the guidance with, because I was too busy being mired in the first one - that whole "this person can't write" thing - to bring myself around to the second one. (And I did manage to bring myself there eventually, by the way - stepping back from that particular story for a couple of days and then revisiting with everyone's advice in mind allowed me to see that there was indeed something to work with. Funny thing was, when I came back to it, it really wasn't all that bad. I guess I just came at it from a bad angle the first time.) (Oh, and no, I didn't post my comments publicly - after this conversation, I didn't want anyone to suddenly think, "crap, it was my they were talking about the whole time.")

Trillian's answer helps put into perspective the next awkward phase the issue:  Once I have come to see the merit in the piece, how do I balance the positive against the critical? But Trillian is right - if I sit around analyzing the good parts, that's just a waste of the author's time, as well as my own. The good parts are already good. So point them out by all means - it's as (if not more) important to know what not to change as it is to know what to fix. But that said, let's move on to what needs work.

So I won't feel guilty when that suggestions paragraph is a lot longer than the compliments paragraph. But I won't forget to wait until I can genuinely see my way clear to write that compliments paragraph, because if I can't, then I haven't read it closely enough.

Wow, that sounded like something out of The Wizard of Oz, didn't it? "I won't go looking any further than my own back yard..." Sorry 'bout that. But a lesson is a lesson, and this is one that I had to learn. Again, thanks for such amazing responses and guidance. You folks are really incredible!

(Oh, and Trill, I don't want to speak for londongirl, but I didn't think she was saying that you were TOO harsh. I suspect what she was trying to say is that you speak the truth where the truth needs to be spoken. Sometimes the truth hurts, it can be harsh. But if the goal is to improve, white lies and turning a blind eye will only hinder that process. And the whole reason we're here is to improve - it may or may not be why people enter, but it must be the reason why we post to the forum, right? So keep speaking the truth, Trillian, and know that your comments will always be welcome and appreciated on anything I post. Even if they hurt.)

- lilah
2016 FFC
R1, Grp 30, Ch 2 The Summer of Love
R1, Grp 30, Ch 1 The Princess The Fairy and The Boy
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Trillian4210 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trillian4210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by lilafrog lilafrog wrote:

if I sit around analyzing the good parts, that's just a waste of the author's time, as well as my own. The good parts are already good. So point them out by all means - it's as (if not more) important to know what not to change as it is to know what to fix. But that said, let's move on to what needs work.So I won't feel guilty when that suggestions paragraph is a lot longer than the compliments paragraph.

    
You put it much better than I. The good writing doesn't need to be picked apart: "I LOVE what you're doing with your commas!"   

But I'll sometimes quote certain bits that particularly stand out.

I think the people here are SO cool, and SO considerate of one another, and SO deserving to hear the good with the bad...it's just awesome. It's evident in the fact that there are TWO posts regarding the issue of giving honest, yet DECENT criticism.    

And lila, you're right up there as far as being critical but really taking the time to show what works too, so I wouldn't worry. I WISH I had a story for you to critique.

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote londongirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 10:55pm
Trillian -Lilafrog's exactly right - I meant harsh in a good way! And I would never ask anyone not to review my work. I put it out there for all and sundry and every view is valid. I need to know if something is really wrong, and I don't need it sugar coated. I think your reviews are great.

So with that in mind, go back to your review of my story and find something critical to say! Honestly. But thank you for the kind words too.




Edited by londongirl - 31 Jan 2009 at 10:58pm
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