'Tis Better to Say Nothing?
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Category: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Forum Name: Creative Writing Corner
Forum Description: Discuss NYC Midnight Creative Writing Competitions or Creative Writing in general.
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Topic: 'Tis Better to Say Nothing?
Posted By: lilafrog
Subject: 'Tis Better to Say Nothing?
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 12:37pm
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Okay, we kind of touched on this in the whole "Pact" thread, but I want y'all's thoughts...
When you come across a piece that needs a lot of work (by no means a worthless piece, but rather something which, as you read, leaves you with a great deal more suggestions and critical material to offer than praise), how do you best handle it? Personally, I would prefer that my reviewers give me the whole truth, even if it hurts. Of course I don't want to be lambasted, but if most of what they have to offer is critical, then that's probably going to be the review that most helps me improve. But I've learned through harsh lessons on both sides that not everyone feels that way - particularly in such a public venue - and nor is everyone necessarily in a place with their writing where they are ready for that sort of pointed feedback, however accurate and helpful it may be. So what do you do? Do you say what you've got to say, give it the most positive, supportive spin you can, and just cross your fingers in hopes that you haven't scared away the next Hemingway? Do you keep it short and sweet, curbing the majority of your thoughts and suggestions in order to maintain the positive/critical feedback balance? Do you send the author a private message so as not to risk causing (or incurring) public humiliation and/or outrage? Or do you just keep your mouth [keyboard] shut and don't say anything at all? Where is the line to be drawn in this social and public yet isolated and largely anonymous environment? The mere act of translating one's thoughts into writing is a brave one - this we know. We also know how scary it is to then offer those thoughts up to the scrutiny of our peers. At the same time, we do so in order to learn and improve, do we not? So where is that line? What is appropriate, what is proper, and what is best? Your thoughts and feedback would be tremendously helpful to this socially stunted and awkward reader and reviewer. Thanks, lilah ------------- 2016 FFC R1, Grp 30, Ch 2 http://tinyurl.com/jecf5ph" rel="nofollow - The Summer of Love R1, Grp 30, Ch 1 http://tinyurl.com/hjerxak" rel="nofollow - The Princess The Fairy and The Boy |
Replies:
Posted By: sutekh137
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 12:53pm
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lilafrog, Here's what I do. First of all, I'm lazy. If a piece needs a ton of punctuation work, I just say, "Work on punctuation." I'm not a grammar teacher, and I'm not going to start. Next, if there is just an overall struggle with structure, dialogue, plot, or characters, I step back and morph my Likes/Dislikes into Strong/Weak. Even a rough story has comparative strengths in it. Focus on those and explain, in your opinion, what works in the strong bits, and why the weak bits fell flat (again, for you). It is of PARAMOUNT importance that you make clear any dislikes are your opinion only. In fact, I tend to make "likes" sound global, and make "dislikes" known to be clearly subjective. Just a nice spot of tact in that. If offering a truthful, tactful response "scares away the next Hemingway", I doubt that writer was Hemingway to begin with, you know? The craft takes skill AND persistence. Neither can be lacking, and one needs to carry the other when one breaks a leg. The old adage "treat how you would want to be treated" goes a long way with this as well. I love it -- were critiquing how we critique! I love "meta"! JoeK |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 3:16pm
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This is a really good subject and I'm glad you brought it up.
In case anyone's noticed, I tend to be more detailed abou what I think needs work in a piece. I think it is extremely important to tell the person what IS working, what is good about (because there's ALWAYS something good, and what was good writing. However, I also feel that we are searching to improve. I guess I can be pretty blunt sometimes but the intention is always to help and I would never be cruel. Believe me, I come from a hard-core writing community and there are a handful there who are CRUEL. I think honest, if a tad brutal criticism is needed for a writer to really understand where to improve. I expect it from anyone I submit my work to, and too often my friends are too gentle. They tell me what's great and what they liked and while that's nice to hear, it's not entirely helpful since I KNOW my stuff is not bullet proof. However, these competitions are a whole other ball of wax. Here, what's done is done. There is no taking our suggestions and reworking and resubmitting. So I find it somewhat uncomfortable giving my usual critique. I still do, but it's not the same. So I guess this can serve as a mini-warning...I'm NEVER going to be cruel or say something dishonest. But I WILL say what doesn't work for me with pure intention of helping. I think, as writers looking to improve, we should DEMAND that. |
Posted By: sutekh137
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 4:49pm
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Should we use CAPS, TOO? *laugh* Joke, Trill. I guess I'm just seeing some passion I hadn't -- hence the caps. I am cruel if I am a personal reader. Because if I am a personal reader, the author must trust me. So I can be cruel, in my cool little way. Cruel IS better, when it's needed. I don't think anyone here is close enough to be cruel, I really don't. Maybe a PM? Actually, Trill, I will never demand cruelty. Maybe that will be my downfall, but that's my choice... JoeK |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 5:55pm
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Personally, I don't condone cruelty. Brutal honesty? Yes. But the cruelty I spoke of at the other writing community was not in the vein of helping, it was for the edification of the "reviewer's" own scathing wit. E.G.: (paraphrase, but not much) "...for writing like this, you are deserving of having broken glass shoved into every available orifice."
Cruelty is for the reviewer to feel better about herself, brutal honesty is for the writer. I prefer the latter. :) Yeah, I use caps for emphasis because I hate the italic code here. I prefer and am more used to HTML. But I'm not rabid, I swear. :P |
Posted By: sutekh137
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 6:15pm
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Well, Trill, if anyone ever delivered that brand of "cruelty" on me, they'd get a LOT more than they bargained for. I don't believe in just having a thick skin. I firmly believe in not taking unnecessary sh*t. Actually, since I have a pretty thin skin, I probably believe in the give-back more... No one should take that. And I believe that onus is on the receiver. The givers ain't gonna learn, otherwise. We're all fine wordsmiths, and we should be able to handle our own! I LOVE caps. JoeK |
Posted By: troutbellies
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 7:08pm
| The only way I grow as a writer is to be critiqued with honesty and brutality. So bring it on. At the same time, though, feed my ego a bit so I'll want to improve. |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 7:17pm
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Joe:
Yeah the person who received that "broken glass" critique was emotionally wrecked for awhile. I step in whenever I can and am usually vilified by that critiquer and her buddies, but rather that than say nothing and just watch the carnage. Trout: Well said. |
Posted By: sutekh137
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 7:22pm
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Trill, I am sorry to hear about any emotional wreckage... I do get wrecked, too. But my bottom line is one of very strong self, and self-defense. Cruel people, especially the nonchalant, entitled, "hey, I didn't know" kind, are a terrible scourge on humanity. I have no interest in trying to reach common ground with such folks. In fact, it is one of the few areas that I am sad to admit I entirely lack compassion and don't lament the fact. :\ And they vilify you? Wow. Are these folks some kind of ultra-successful writers? If not, time to lose the whole circle of friends. Sounds like they'd rather be sitting in a circle of their own, if you know what I mean... JoeK |
Posted By: Dutchie
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 7:40pm
I feared the reviews before I posted, but at the same time I couldn't wait to hear fellow-writer's opinions on my writing. I mean, I have had my family and friends read my story and what do thay say: "We are so proud of you." "Wow, what a great work of art." (setaside the fact that all of them speak Dutch first and foremost). However nice it was to read this, I need to hear hard facts. What is not working the way it should in my story? What needs inprovement. My sole reason to enter this competition was to learn from it, so please keep on giving me constructive feedback. But, I can't leave this one out, consider the fact that I am ahuman being with feelings  .
Btw, so far I think about 98% of all the reviews and feedbacks that i have read (not just on my story but all the story's I read) is very constructive, so good job everyone on being such good judges! Lilah, personally, if I were afraid what I have to say would be too harsh, and I consider what most of you have to say slightly more valuable then my own opinion, I would probably put it in a PM. To get the message across, but keep it between me and the writer. |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 9:14pm
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Joe, to be clear, the emotional wreckage wasn't me. I wasn't the person to whom the critique was left. But yeah, her buddies don't like to be told that there is a way to say things that help the writer without crushing their spirit. And no, they definitely were NOT professional writers.
I think professionals have a measure of satisfacion in their work and don't feel the need to crush the "competition." :) |
Posted By: sutekh137
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 6:05am
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Luckily, we appear to have that here, on writers from a wide range of races, geographical locations, ages, and genders! It's really pretty cool! JoeK |
Posted By: lilafrog
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 7:40am
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Yes, I think you're right about that, JoeK. And it's something that I admire and respect so much about this group and this competition; it's what makes this fun. And it's the reason I asked the question - I didn't want to risk damaging that fragile balance. Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. You guys are way too cool.
As I was reading your wise comments, it occurred to me that environment also counts for a lot of my own reading experience. Sometimes I can pick up something and be totally disinterested, then a week later sit down with the same piece and be fully absorbed. So maybe that's what I need to do is just wait a day or two when I encounter a piece that leaves me flat, or where I can only really focus on the areas that I feel need improvement (and thanks for that reminder - it's very important for me to remember that what I'm offering is only how I perceive the thing, not necessarily how the rest of the world would see it... turns out it actually ISN'T all about me - who knew?). Perhaps when I come back to it later, I'll be able to see it with newer, clearer eyes. As yet I haven't commented on the story that made me ask this question, and maybe I won't. It just kinda caught me by surprise - usually I'm so engaged by some aspect of the story that I end up babbling on about this or that until my review looks like a NaNoWriMo entry (as most of you know). But this one just left me with a bunch of notes and not much upside... So anyway, I shall employ y'all's suggestions and give it a little time, then come back to it. If still unable to view a broad enough ray of light, I'll send the author a PM. At least then I'll know that whatever I do finally end up saying, if anything, will have come from a sincere and well-thought out process of evaluation. Again, my heartfelt and respectful thanks - your wisdom shall not be wasted! - lilah ------------- 2016 FFC R1, Grp 30, Ch 2 http://tinyurl.com/jecf5ph" rel="nofollow - The Summer of Love R1, Grp 30, Ch 1 http://tinyurl.com/hjerxak" rel="nofollow - The Princess The Fairy and The Boy |
Posted By: linguist
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 8:38am
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Trillian, Joe and Lilafrog, I've had the benefit of reviews from all three of you on several items of my work and have found in every instance your reviews were spot on, useful and always done in a classy way.
And I'm a shiver in the corner sensitive kind of writer, too, so that's saying something! I think that receiving criticism is the hardest part of this process. I was so terrified of it, I didn't even post my first round story from the 48 hour contest. I tentatively posted round 2 and got such good feedback, I never looked back. I have been *terribly* burned by other forums for reviewing stories. Most notably was the Zoetrope site. Good night those people are freaking brutal. I actually entered this current short story contest SOLELY for the critiques and feedback. Now that I'm getting good usable editing ideas and breakdown of weaknesses, I'm starting to crave it. I need it to be a better writer! So I say...be honest. But bear in mind that not everyone wants to hear the truth. |
Posted By: write4life
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 6:49am
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As writers we put out babies out there to be scrutinized. We're entering them in the Cutest Baby Contest, then someone tells us their head is a little too big, or their lips aren't full, or they just don't have enough hair, etc. Difficult to hear, but if we're being honest, we NEED to hear all those things if we're ever going to be published. The good news is that unlike the baby contest, we can make changes to take care of the flaws.
We have to have thick skin and thrive on rejection. We've all heard the stories of great works that have been rejected over and over before someone took a chance on them. If we can't handle criticism, no matter how tough or "off the mark" we think it is, we should hang it up and move on to something else.
My two cents....................
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Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 3:00pm
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First of all, let me say I think the forums here are great, and the peer review seems to be conducted in a real spirit of generousity. Trillian - I've read a few of your critiques on the 2009 short stories and I would say you are harsh but fair. What's clear is that you (and lilafrog and sutekh137) take time and pay attention and give thought to your reviews and that is an important thing in itself. To get back to the original question on this topic - to be really brutally honest, any of us who have been involved in peer review know that sometimes you read something where you think: 'Uh-oh. This person really cannot write'. And then you take a step back from that initial reaction and think: 'This person can't write right now, but that's not to say there isn't something to work with', and as a reviewer you look for that little something. Just in case. |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 4:37pm
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londongirl,
I hope I'm not too harsh. In the writing comm I hail from, I come from the land of nice. :) As you pointed out, there is merit in EVERY story and the writer deserves to know what works as well as what doesn't. But telling someone what needs work takes up more space than does saying something is fine because the 'fine' doesn't need to be analyzed. But if anyone would prefer I didn't leave them a review, let me know. I would rather err on the side of keeping things friendly if the person really would prefer that. |
Posted By: lilafrog
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 5:36pm
These two comments really comprise one answer to my original dilemma. It's that second reaction of londongirl's that I needed the guidance with, because I was too busy being mired in the first one - that whole "this person can't write" thing - to bring myself around to the second one. (And I did manage to bring myself there eventually, by the way - stepping back from that particular story for a couple of days and then revisiting with everyone's advice in mind allowed me to see that there was indeed something to work with. Funny thing was, when I came back to it, it really wasn't all that bad. I guess I just came at it from a bad angle the first time.) (Oh, and no, I didn't post my comments publicly - after this conversation, I didn't want anyone to suddenly think, "crap, it was my they were talking about the whole time.") Trillian's answer helps put into perspective the next awkward phase the issue: Once I have come to see the merit in the piece, how do I balance the positive against the critical? But Trillian is right - if I sit around analyzing the good parts, that's just a waste of the author's time, as well as my own. The good parts are already good. So point them out by all means - it's as (if not more) important to know what not to change as it is to know what to fix. But that said, let's move on to what needs work. So I won't feel guilty when that suggestions paragraph is a lot longer than the compliments paragraph. But I won't forget to wait until I can genuinely see my way clear to write that compliments paragraph, because if I can't, then I haven't read it closely enough. Wow, that sounded like something out of The Wizard of Oz, didn't it? "I won't go looking any further than my own back yard..." Sorry 'bout that. But a lesson is a lesson, and this is one that I had to learn. Again, thanks for such amazing responses and guidance. You folks are really incredible! (Oh, and Trill, I don't want to speak for londongirl, but I didn't think she was saying that you were TOO harsh. I suspect what she was trying to say is that you speak the truth where the truth needs to be spoken. Sometimes the truth hurts, it can be harsh. But if the goal is to improve, white lies and turning a blind eye will only hinder that process. And the whole reason we're here is to improve - it may or may not be why people enter, but it must be the reason why we post to the forum, right? So keep speaking the truth, Trillian, and know that your comments will always be welcome and appreciated on anything I post. Even if they hurt.) - lilah ------------- 2016 FFC R1, Grp 30, Ch 2 http://tinyurl.com/jecf5ph" rel="nofollow - The Summer of Love R1, Grp 30, Ch 1 http://tinyurl.com/hjerxak" rel="nofollow - The Princess The Fairy and The Boy |
londongirl wrote:Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 8:04pm
You put it much better than I. The good writing doesn't need to be picked apart: "I LOVE what you're doing with your commas!"
But I'll sometimes quote certain bits that particularly stand out. I think the people here are SO cool, and SO considerate of one another, and SO deserving to hear the good with the bad...it's just awesome. It's evident in the fact that there are TWO posts regarding the issue of giving honest, yet DECENT criticism. And lila, you're right up there as far as being critical but really taking the time to show what works too, so I wouldn't worry. I WISH I had a story for you to critique. :) |
Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2009 at 11:55pm
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Trillian -Lilafrog's exactly right - I meant harsh in a good way! And I would never ask anyone not to review my work. I put it out there for all and sundry and every view is valid. I need to know if something is really wrong, and I don't need it sugar coated. I think your reviews are great. So with that in mind, go back to your review of my story and find something critical to say! Honestly. But thank you for the kind words too. |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 7:25am
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I should have started out your review saying that it was going to be my harshest yet. :P
I don't want to go back and look for nitpicky things on yours. It left me satisfied and I don't want to start digging up petty little things that take away from that. Sorry!
Oh, and I didn't think you were telling me they were too harsh, I just hoped they weren't. I'm still going to do my thing :) but I'm going to be more vigilant at the same time. |
Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 8:04am
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Well, Trillian, I'm flattered. That's a great compliment. By all means leave it as perfect in your imagination! I don't know what other people do, but when someone gives me a review I usually have a look at other reviews they have posted and/or their own story, to get an idea of how to judge their critique of me. It doesn't take long to work out whose opinions you respect most. And it's different for everyone. |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 8:25am
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Absolutely. And while I really appreciate "negative" critique as far as showing me areas of improvement, I get annoyed at lazy critique. The ones that say things like, "I didn't get why Ted wore the red hat," when two paragraphs in, I have "Ted wore the red hat because..."
If something is vague and it's my fault, fine. But if something is spelled out or easily discernible by elements in the story, I don't pay attention to critiques like that. Okay, off to read another. (I'm trying to start on the last page and work forward so the early posters get some attention.) And geez, I am regretting not entering. I've missed an opportunity to have my stuff analyzed by some thoughtful people. :( |
Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 8:31am
| I'm starting at the back too. Aren't we altruistic? Although I also thought I might add a comment to mine to push it back up to the top and get some more attention ... |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 8:54am
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If you want, I'll go back and say that I forgot to mention how much I loved the title. heheh.
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Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 10:02am
| You've got me there - the title is terrible! |
Posted By: Trillian4210
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 11:48am
| Oh. I'm terrible at titles. Always SO heavy-handed. And synopsisesess...terrible. |
Posted By: Mari
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 11:21am
| I read through these posts, and agree with everything stated. I am trying to comment on each story - but time is keeping me from it. The only thing I wonder about would be the fact that most of these writer's far outweigh me in ability. So, for now, until I get a little more knowlegeable, I have been putting my gut reactions down, without the ability to really criticize the writing. If I love it I tell them so. I hope that is an okay thing to do, rather than not saying anything. But I have wondered. I suppose I wonder because it really isn't that helpful for the writer, and maybe inappropriate in a forum for critiqueing. Any thoughts? |
Posted By: Mari
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 11:28am
| Oh, and also from the viewpoint of one who is learning a lot from critiques - give it to me! I have appreciated every critique I've received - and that is the value of this whole enterprise. : ) |
Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 1:46pm
| Mari - I think any writer, no matter what their level of experience, can bring something of value to a critique. And don't forget that we are also critiquing from the standpoint of a reader, which is truly invaluable. After all, we don't just want writers reading our work, we want everyone to share it (or at least I do!). Most writers soon acquire a bunch of 'readers': friends, family etc, who aren't writers themselves, but can tell you what it is like to experience your story from the other side of the page, as it were. All feedback is valuable, and as you pointed out, one of the great things about this competition. |
Posted By: write4life
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 10:20am
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I couldn't agree with you more londongirl. I've seen some posts where readers didn't get the symbolism, and even if we as writers think it's obvious, if the audience doesn't get it, then it loses something and is distracting. So absolutely, that feedback is important.
~Brent
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Posted By: rvnyc
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 12:52pm
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The distinction I make is: Good criticism is specific, honest, and addresses something that theoretically can be fixed. (e.g. "I felt cheated at the end when the character didn't confront his father.") Ideally, good criticism should ring true to the author. Bad criticism is vague, personal, and hard to fix. ("I feel like this story tries too hard.") Stuff like that should always be ignored, because you can't fix it, and it just makes you feel bad about yourself as a writer. |
Posted By: bdavid
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 5:58pm
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I care if readers wanted to know how the story ends. Was their interest engaged from the first sentence to the last? If not, the language, the grammar, the plotting and yes, even the computer formatting is unimportant.
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Posted By: londongirl
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2009 at 12:48am
| bdavid - if your language, grammar and plotting aren't right, how are you going to engage me in the story? Surely they are your only tools? |