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The worst pep talk ever.

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Topic: The worst pep talk ever.
Posted By: Guests
Subject: The worst pep talk ever.
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 11:49pm
What do you guys think of this pep talk? It's for week 2 of NaNoWriMo. Do you all agree with it? Disagree? I think it's horrible. It seemed very negative to me and gloom-and-doom. 

http://nanowrimo.org/pep-talks/justina-ireland" rel="nofollow - Pep talk by Justina Ireland




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Replies:
Posted By: Lookit There
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 12:03am
Geez, Justina. Way to harsh a buzz.
Seriously, where was the pep in that pep talk?


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Posted By: hanalyst
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 1:14am
I...didn't totally hate it. (Though it did cause me to click on her website purely to judge the content.)

I do like Dorothy Parker's summation better:
"I hate writing. I love having written."


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Posted By: manifestlynot
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 1:51am
I didn’t hate it either.

Writing doesn’t always suck, but writing well does always suck (for me anyway). I did not like cutting 400 words out of my story this weekend, but it helped me learn to be discerning. I did not like going to sleep at 2 am on Fri and Sat nights, but it helped me learn to manage my time better. And I especially did not like submitting something I’m not in love with, but it helped me realize that not everything is going to be a winner.

I saw Charlie Kaufman at a writers’ panel once and he described his writing process as follows (paraphrased): “I wake up and write utter garbage. Then I add some disgusting filth, then I have lunch. Then I write the worst sh*t anyone has ever seen or could imagine. Then I write more garbage. Then I eat dinner and go to sleep hating myself worse than I did yesterday.”

It resonated with me so much. I’m never harder on myself than when I’m writing - but I’m never happier than when I’ve written something I’m proud of.


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Posted By: chrissie0707
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 6:05am
Originally posted by hanalyst hanalyst wrote:

I...didn't totally hate it. (Though it did cause me to click on her website purely to judge the content.)

I do like Dorothy Parker's summation better:
"I hate writing. I love having written."

This. I have this posted above my computer. Writing is HARD. I love it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a little like self-inflicted torture. :P


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Posted By: DreamThief
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 6:21am
I feel like it had a good point, but was perhaps not delivered as well as it could have been. Although stuff like that I guess is hard to deliver ‘well’ without sugarcoating it. Probably not really peppy enough for a pep talk though, I agree.

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Posted By: KelsNotChels
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 6:55am
Hahaa. I really loved this pep talk. 

I do think that Writing Well does usually have some element of suckage.

Sorta how I imagine really intense workouts for athletes always suck. You might get some pleasure from it, and love the end result, but there’s a sacrifice of effort and often pain.

You do it (at least I do it) anyway. 

Different peps for different people, I guess! :)


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FF22
https://tinyurl.com/hxandznw" rel="nofollow - R1 - 1st place


Posted By: SLK43
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 6:59am
Originally posted by manifestlynot manifestlynot wrote:

I didn’t hate it either.

Writing doesn’t always suck, but writing well does always suck (for me anyway). I did not like cutting 400 words out of my story this weekend, but it helped me learn to be discerning. I did not like going to sleep at 2 am on Fri and Sat nights, but it helped me learn to manage my time better. And I especially did not like submitting something I’m not in love with, but it helped me realize that not everything is going to be a winner.

I saw Charlie Kaufman at a writers’ panel once and he described his writing process as follows (paraphrased): “I wake up and write utter garbage. Then I add some disgusting filth, then I have lunch. Then I write the worst sh*t anyone has ever seen or could imagine. Then I write more garbage. Then I eat dinner and go to sleep hating myself worse than I did yesterday.”

It resonated with me so much. I’m never harder on myself than when I’m writing - but I’m never happier than when I’ve written something I’m proud of.
You absolutely nail the writing journey - couldn't agree with you more!


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C2-G52 https://forums.nycmidnight.com/c2-g52-the-ultimate-dream-aa_topic49338.html" rel="nofollow - The Ultimate Dream






Posted By: lisafox10800
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 7:58am
Originally posted by SLK43 SLK43 wrote:

Originally posted by manifestlynot manifestlynot wrote:

I didn’t hate it either.

Writing doesn’t always suck, but writing well does always suck (for me anyway). I did not like cutting 400 words out of my story this weekend, but it helped me learn to be discerning. I did not like going to sleep at 2 am on Fri and Sat nights, but it helped me learn to manage my time better. And I especially did not like submitting something I’m not in love with, but it helped me realize that not everything is going to be a winner.

I saw Charlie Kaufman at a writers’ panel once and he described his writing process as follows (paraphrased): “I wake up and write utter garbage. Then I add some disgusting filth, then I have lunch. Then I write the worst sh*t anyone has ever seen or could imagine. Then I write more garbage. Then I eat dinner and go to sleep hating myself worse than I did yesterday.”

It resonated with me so much. I’m never harder on myself than when I’m writing - but I’m never happier than when I’ve written something I’m proud of.
You absolutely nail the writing journey - couldn't agree with you more!

^^ I am so glad I'm not alone in this. Each contest weekend, I leave my husband scratching his head, saying "but I thought you LIKED doing this?" LOL


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lisafoxiswriting.com
My short story collection, Core Truths, is now available wherever books are sold.


Posted By: Random
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:09am
Originally posted by lisafox10800 lisafox10800 wrote:

Originally posted by SLK43 SLK43 wrote:

Originally posted by manifestlynot manifestlynot wrote:

I didn’t hate it either.

Writing doesn’t always suck, but writing well does always suck (for me anyway). I did not like cutting 400 words out of my story this weekend, but it helped me learn to be discerning. I did not like going to sleep at 2 am on Fri and Sat nights, but it helped me learn to manage my time better. And I especially did not like submitting something I’m not in love with, but it helped me realize that not everything is going to be a winner.

I saw Charlie Kaufman at a writers’ panel once and he described his writing process as follows (paraphrased): “I wake up and write utter garbage. Then I add some disgusting filth, then I have lunch. Then I write the worst sh*t anyone has ever seen or could imagine. Then I write more garbage. Then I eat dinner and go to sleep hating myself worse than I did yesterday.”

It resonated with me so much. I’m never harder on myself than when I’m writing - but I’m never happier than when I’ve written something I’m proud of.
You absolutely nail the writing journey - couldn't agree with you more!

^^ I am so glad I'm not alone in this. Each contest weekend, I leave my husband scratching his head, saying "but I thought you LIKED doing this?" LOL

Writing is a bit like addiction; you hate yourself for doing it, but when you do it well it feels so good...

There's no pleasant way to describe writing for people who aren't compelled by some inner demon to do so.  It's self-inflicted pain and humiliation, and the reward is rarely external. 

You write scenes that are perfect, you've carefully tended them, grown them from seeds until you have this beautiful structure.  Then the day comes you look at them and want to throw up, because everyone is so professional and understanding and just plain wrong!  Time to re-write the whole thing, only this time it's all about ego and shallow self-interest.  Much more human.  They'll be professional later on...


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Posted By: ajacunski
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:10am
I absolutely loved this pep talk. 

"You could accept the pure simple truth of writing: it is work."

I think that's something with which a lot of writers (especially new writers) struggle. It's not about ~*~inspiration~*~, it's about sitting down and doing the work: the writing, the editing, the re-editing, the scrapping, the critiquing, all of it. Pretending it's sunshine and rainbows all the time isn't helpful to anyone's long-term growth as a writer.

Ride the highs, but slog through the lows, because you have to get through them to get anywhere.


Posted By: td333777
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:21am
As a pep talk, it ain't very peppy. What it is, however, is spot-on truth. I totally agree with almost everything she said!

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FF '17 - 1st, SSC '18 - 2nd, FF '20 - 7th


Posted By: manifestlynot
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:30am
Originally posted by ajacunski ajacunski wrote:

I absolutely loved this pep talk. 

"You could accept the pure simple truth of writing: it is work."

I think that's something with which a lot of writers (especially new writers) struggle. It's not about ~*~inspiration~*~, it's about sitting down and doing the work: the writing, the editing, the re-editing, the scrapping, the critiquing, all of it. Pretending it's sunshine and rainbows all the time isn't helpful to anyone's long-term growth as a writer.

Ride the highs, but slog through the lows, because you have to get through them to get anywhere.

Agree totally. There is always one point in any given writing session when I look at what I’ve done and say “This isn’t even readable. I’m the worst writer that ever lived. Everyone who has complimenting my writing is LYING to me.”

Then I finish the draft and it’s better. Then my husband reads it and it’s better. Then I actually like the second (or third or fourth) draft. But I always have to stare down the dragon of my own self-doubt first, and that’s the part that SUCKS.


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Rhyming R1: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51185_post541412.html#541412" rel="nofollow - Lionheart (Hist fic)


Posted By: SassHonore
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:32am
I thought it was great. I think a lot of people start NaNoWriMo and are shocked at how hard it is and how painful it can be, and I saw this pep talk as a way of assuring those people that they are normal, and that just because it sometimes sucks doesn't mean you're not meant to do it and doesn't mean you don't have a worthy story to tell. I know that when we read published books we are often blown away, and I am super guilty of thinking, "UGH, I wish I could write like that." But that book got through dozens of people, including professional editors and readers, before it got to me. There was a lot of pain and exhaustion and things that went into that book. At this point in NaNoWriMo, a lot of writers who've never attempted this before are thinking, "I must not be cut out for this, otherwise why would it be this hard? All the authors I read make this look so easy."  I saw her message as being one of, "You're not alone if you're having a hard time--this is hard for ALL of us." 


Posted By: nod1v1ng
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 10:43am
I don't usually read the NaNo pep talks, mostly because, more often than not, they do noting for me, but I went and read this one for the sake of discussion. As someone mentioned, not peppy. Truth? Perhaps.

I think more importantly it is best to recognize that the process is different for everyone, and everyone's truths are subjective.

Am I sometimes frustrated and plagued by self doubt? Indeed. Is writing hard work, require diligence, perseverance, and a tiny bit of bravery? Absolutely. Do I thrive on that challenge? Without a doubt. 

Even when I fail, I learn valuable lessons. Sometimes the writing is complete drivel, but still cathartic.

Personally, I'd never say "writing sucks" - just because something is hard doesn't make it bad.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 11:46am
Originally posted by SassHonore SassHonore wrote:

I thought it was great. I think a lot of people start NaNoWriMo and are shocked at how hard it is and how painful it can be, and I saw this pep talk is a way of assuring those people that they are normal, and that just because it sometimes sucks doesn't mean you're not meant to do it and doesn't mean you don't have a worthy story to tell. I know that when we read published books we are often blown away, and I am super guilty of thinking, "UGH, I wish I could write like that." But that book got through dozens of people, including professional editors and readers, before it got to me. There was a lot of pain and exhaustion and things that went into that book. At this point in NaNoWriMo, a lot of writers who've never attempted this before are thinking, "I must not be cut out for this, otherwise why would it be this hard? All the authors I read make this look so easy."  I saw her message as being one of, "You're not alone if you're having a hard time--this is hard for ALL of us." 

I think you've done the best job of explaining why her pep talk doesn't entirely "suck"! Thanks!! Clap

When I was in middle school, my mother (who's best handled in very small quantities) was always saying, "Don't bother getting involved in anything. It's all pointless." And I didn't know it at the time, but I wanted her to take my hand and say, "Look, there's an opening in the drama club after school, why don't you join?" This pep talk from Ireland reminded me way too much of Mother. Negativity, gloom and doom, why bother, just quit and don't try. I still don't care for her pep talk at all, but I'm glad some of you took something from it! Star
 
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Posted By: SassHonore
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Zelda Zelda wrote:

Originally posted by SassHonore SassHonore wrote:

I thought it was great. I think a lot of people start NaNoWriMo and are shocked at how hard it is and how painful it can be, and I saw this pep talk is a way of assuring those people that they are normal, and that just because it sometimes sucks doesn't mean you're not meant to do it and doesn't mean you don't have a worthy story to tell. I know that when we read published books we are often blown away, and I am super guilty of thinking, "UGH, I wish I could write like that." But that book got through dozens of people, including professional editors and readers, before it got to me. There was a lot of pain and exhaustion and things that went into that book. At this point in NaNoWriMo, a lot of writers who've never attempted this before are thinking, "I must not be cut out for this, otherwise why would it be this hard? All the authors I read make this look so easy."  I saw her message as being one of, "You're not alone if you're having a hard time--this is hard for ALL of us." 

I think you've done the best job of explaining why her pep talk doesn't entirely "suck"! Thanks!! Clap

When I was in middle school, my mother (who's best handled in very small quantities) was always saying, "Don't bother getting involved in anything. It's all pointless." And I didn't know it at the time, but I wanted her to take my hand and say, "Look, there's an opening in the drama club after school, why don't you join?" This pep talk from Ireland reminded me way too much of Mother. Negativity, gloom and doom, why bother, just quit and don't try. I still don't care for her pep talk at all, but I'm glad some of you took something from it! Star
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Ooooooh, yeah, I can definitely see how this pep talk would have brought back some negative memories. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by SassHonore SassHonore wrote:


Ooooooh, yeah, I can definitely see how this pep talk would have brought back some negative memories. 
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Thank you! Yeah! I showed the pep talk to my dad (who divorced my mom several decades ago), and he was like, "Yeah, I can see why you wouldn't like this pep talk!" 

But I was genuinely surprised that other people did like it. It's hard sometimes to separate one's experiences from everyone else's. I guess it's all part of the weirdness of life, or whatev. Big smile


Posted By: robosagogo
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 2:14pm
I liked the pep talk myself. I think a lot of people get discouraged from writing because it doesn't live up to their unrealistic expectations, namely that they'll be able to sit down and just type a story out from start to finish without any hiccups.

The question of why writing is a worthwhile practice remains open-ended for me, though. Sometimes it feels like it is, and sometimes it feels like it isn't. That said, I'm probably more of proud of the entire collection of stories I've written than I am of anything else I've done.


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https://bit.ly/2zbmO8B" rel="nofollow - CH3 Mystery


Posted By: chrissie0707
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 2:53pm
I just reread this "pep" talk, as I stare at a blank Word document and try to beat the day's Nano words out of my dozing brain. I think what she's saying is, the ACT of writing sucks. And yeah, maybe "sucks" wasn't the best term, but it's relatable, right? In this case, I take it to mean

The act of writing is work

the act of writing is hard

The act of writing will kick you in the ass and not stop to take your name

The act of writing will leave your stomach in frustrated knots

But at the end of all of that, when you're no longer writing but staring at something that you've WRITTEN, it's worth it. What's that quote? Anything that's worth doing won't be easy, and anything easy isn't worth doing. Something like that. Writing's hard, yo. And, yeah, sometimes it SUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.

All right. Enough procrastinating.

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Posted By: jay.aitch.gee
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 3:12pm
I loved this pep talk. I really appreciate it when people de-romanticize the work of writing. I wasted years not writing things because it didn't feel like this rewarding, magical process. Tbh, I wish someone had come along much sooner in my life to tell me that it's normal for writing to suck and be difficult. 


Posted By: SassHonore
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by jay.aitch.gee jay.aitch.gee wrote:

I loved this pep talk. I really appreciate it when people de-romanticize the work of writing. I wasted years not writing things because it didn't feel like this rewarding, magical process. Tbh, I wish someone had come along much sooner in my life to tell me that it's normal for writing to suck and be difficult. 

Ooooooof, yes, this is me. "Why is this so hard?!? [Author I love] makes it look so easy! I guess I'm not really meant to do this." 

Then I got on Twitter and followed a bunch of authors and was like, ".............................................Oh." 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by SassHonore SassHonore wrote:

Originally posted by jay.aitch.gee jay.aitch.gee wrote:

I loved this pep talk. I really appreciate it when people de-romanticize the work of writing. I wasted years not writing things because it didn't feel like this rewarding, magical process. Tbh, I wish someone had come along much sooner in my life to tell me that it's normal for writing to suck and be difficult. 

Ooooooof, yes, this is me. "Why is this so hard?!? [Author I love] makes it look so easy! I guess I'm not really meant to do this." 

Then I got on Twitter and followed a bunch of authors and was like, ".............................................Oh." 

HA HA! I never use Twitter, so I'm not sure what you discovered there. Sounds interesting, though! 

When I first got into writing, I quit reading a lot of books because I felt threatened by how well written they were. (Mainly from a sentence standpoint, like the technical writing.) I had to, like, get myself to think, "I can do that too," instead of just thinking, "This person's better than me! Noooo, I mean, this person's better than I!" Or whatever. Ouch

It's an interesting concept that writing is romanticized. I hadn't realized that. I guess it still seems romanticized in my brain? Like this one time when I was a kid, a music teacher at church explained to us how to read music, and I got the idea in my head that I could go home, get my mom's piano books, put them on the piano, and learn to play them based on what the teacher had explained to us. I don't remember how successful I was that night, but I did take piano for years and vowed to learn certain pieces, and I did learn them. The Moonlight Sonata, Chopin's Raindrop Prelude, etc. I'm not a great pianist. (My brain works very slowly and I have poor coordination.) But the magic of learning the Moonlight Sonata is one of my favorite memories--how I read through the notes again and again and found the chords with my fingers. The novelty of its melancholy didn't fade for years, until way after I'd played it for memory a million times. 

I guess I'm just saying if the romance is dead, maybe we need to rediscover it somehow. You know, keep it alive. Not embrace its absense. < x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_off">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_highcontrast">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_highcontrast_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_grayscale">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_grayscale_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert_grayscale">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black_back">


Posted By: GGreen
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Zelda Zelda wrote:

Originally posted by SassHonore SassHonore wrote:

Originally posted by jay.aitch.gee jay.aitch.gee wrote:

I loved this pep talk. I really appreciate it when people de-romanticize the work of writing. I wasted years not writing things because it didn't feel like this rewarding, magical process. Tbh, I wish someone had come along much sooner in my life to tell me that it's normal for writing to suck and be difficult. 

Ooooooof, yes, this is me. "Why is this so hard?!? [Author I love] makes it look so easy! I guess I'm not really meant to do this." 

Then I got on Twitter and followed a bunch of authors and was like, ".............................................Oh." 

HA HA! I never use Twitter, so I'm not sure what you discovered there. Sounds interesting, though! 

When I first got into writing, I quit reading a lot of books because I felt threatened by how well written they were. (Mainly from a sentence standpoint, like the technical writing.) I had to, like, get myself to think, "I can do that too," instead of just thinking, "This person's better than me! Noooo, I mean, this person's better than I!" Or whatever. Ouch

It's an interesting concept that writing is romanticized. I hadn't realized that. I guess it still seems romanticized in my brain? Like this one time when I was a kid, a music teacher at church explained to us how to read music, and I got the idea in my head that I could go home, get my mom's piano books, put them on the piano, and learn to play them based on what the teacher had explained to us. I don't remember how successful I was that night, but I did take piano for years and vowed to learn certain pieces, and I did learn them. The Moonlight Sonata, Chopin's Raindrop Prelude, etc. I'm not a great pianist. (My brain works very slowly and I have poor coordination.) But the magic of learning the Moonlight Sonata is one of my favorite memories--how I read through the notes again and again and found the chords with my fingers. The novelty of its melancholy didn't fade for years, until way after I'd played it for memory a million times. 

I guess I'm just saying if the romance is dead, maybe we need to rediscover it somehow. You know, keep it alive. Not embrace its absense. < x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_off">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_highcontrast">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_highcontrast_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_grayscale">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_grayscale_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert_back">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_invert_grayscale">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black">< x="0" y="0" width="99999" height="99999" id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black_back">
I think that people also romanticise the pain of writing. The suffering artist. It plays both ways.


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FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment


Posted By: T.E. Bradford
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Zelda Zelda wrote:

What do you guys think of this pep talk? It's for week 2 of NaNoWriMo. Do you all agree with it? Disagree? I think it's horrible. It seemed very negative to me and gloom-and-doom. 

I pretty much stopped after I read the first sentence, because the argument basis doesn't apply to me. I can see why you'd feel it was negative. Some may not, as evidenced by some of the other responses. But I've learned that for my own peace-of-mind, if it doesn't resonate with me personally, just move on. :)


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--Tracy
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic45081_post472817.html#472817" rel="nofollow - SSP: Heart of Darkness


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by GGreen GGreen wrote:

I think that people also romanticise the pain of writing. The suffering artist. It plays both ways.

Shocked That makes sense! She's trying to glorify her suffering as a published writer! I see it now!! 
 
Originally posted by T.E. Bradford T.E. Bradford wrote:


I pretty much stopped after I read the first sentence, because the argument basis doesn't apply to me. I can see why you'd feel it was negative. Some may not, as evidenced by some of the other responses. But I've learned that for my own peace-of-mind, if it doesn't resonate with me personally, just move on. :)

Good thinking! The first sentence was a doozy, and it didn't get better from there. 
  
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Posted By: jennifer.quail
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 7:07pm
Well, yeah, if you want to do this for real, it's work. It's a job. I don't know anyone who makes a living at writing who doesn't view it as going to work. It's not a terrible job, but you have to treat it as one. (Even artists treat their work as work, not something they do for fun.) 

Beats nine to five, though, at least when you get paid! 


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250 R1: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic56891_post611502.html#611502" rel="nofollow - What Even Is a Mirliton
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Posted By: GGreen
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 3:17am
Originally posted by jennifer.quail jennifer.quail wrote:

Well, yeah, if you want to do this for real, it's work. It's a job. I don't know anyone who makes a living at writing who doesn't view it as going to work. It's not a terrible job, but you have to treat it as one. (Even artists treat their work as work, not something they do for fun.) 

Beats nine to five, though, at least when you get paid! 
The capitalist system of work has such a hold over how we see our lives. This is creation, we are creating something from nothing. Capitalism doesn't like that. It wants us to think we must exchange labour and freedom and pain for money. But I am trying really hard to change my perspective, because that's just not how writing feels to me. And when I was an academic and writing (albeit criticism, not fiction) was essentially what I did for a job, I still loved it and didn't punish myself by convincing myself if I wasn't suffering I was somehow fraudulent.
I know there are two schools of thought on this, and I am pretty firmly in the Liz Gilbert camp (although without the magical thinking).


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FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment


Posted By: thebrokegamer
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:36am
I'm in the camp where I know there's truth in this, but it's delivered so plainly as to be less "pep talk" and more "wake up call". Like, yeah, writing is work and pain and suffering, but why dwell on it when you're trying something so ambitious already?

I dunno. The whole thing just read to me like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8" rel="nofollow - Brave Sir Robin .

As for writing advice, the best I've heard is from Margaret Atwood: "Do back exercises. Pain is distracting."


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2019 FFC:
C4: https://bit.ly/2S6xiAq" rel="nofollow - Like Mist on Metal (3rd Overall)

2020 MF:
A Note Found in a Sleek and Ticking Suitcase


Posted By: NoBananas
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by thebrokegamer thebrokegamer wrote:

I'm in the camp where I know there's truth in this, but it's delivered so plainly as to be less "pep talk" and more "wake up call". Like, yeah, writing is work and pain and suffering, but why dwell on it when you're trying something so ambitious already?

I dunno. The whole thing just read to me like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8" rel="nofollow - Brave Sir Robin .

As for writing advice, the best I've heard is from Margaret Atwood: "Do back exercises. Pain is distracting."

Agree. To be honest, I feel like it was a bit of a judgment on Nano-ers (i.e. calm down... don't get so excited!). To deliver that message to a group who is not exactly elevated in the writing community in the first place...ehhh. Ermm We know writing is hard. 

I don't think it sucks, though. If you don't think some part of writing is fun, you wouldn't do it. Nobody signs up for pain if they get no benefit. 


Posted By: Talespinner
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 6:24pm
I refuse to allow writing to "suck". I think writers who tell new writers it's hard work should examine themselves. 

Are they not interested in their topic? Do they not love language, words, etymology? Is research boring? 

Do they like their audience, wish to connect? What's their mission in life? Why do they write? 

Why do they address new writers? Do they understand the power of suggestion?

To make writing fun, I only write stuff that engages me: subjects that arouse my curiosity, characters I love, or love to hate.

Now that's a tall order, especially here at NYCM, writing to prompts. But I've learned that a bit of research always turns up something. 

E.g. one of my prompts was a creamery. It wasn't long before the internet came up with a creamery in New Zealand way back when, owned by a co-operative of farmers who fell out. 

"Aha!" I thought. Conflict = story. And I wrote my very first mystery. Not a great one, but a story, and an MC who will almost certainly return some day...

That's the other part of writing that most definitely doesn't suck. The joy of discovering one can rise to the challenge.

Not to mention the characters who talk to one; who channel their story through their writer... 

Well, that can suck: I host a character who is a kestrel, and when she's annoyed, she flitters around and pecks at my skull--from the inside! 

I insist upon tools that are aesthetically pleasing: nice Parker pens, nice paper, decent word processor. A typing pit surrounded by authoritative dictionaries and thesauruses, a trusted encyclopedia, fine style guides, a book on fonts, favourite reference books; many on a bookshelf my son helped me to make when he was a kid. Comfort movies and background music on demand. 

Some might say, "Too many distractions." I say, "Only for one with neither focus nor commitment; they all have off switches; covers to close."

Throughout my working life (software engineer, management consultant, auditor, guitarist) I've found that if it sucks, something's wrong. 

In my book, only I, not writing, suck--at candies, chocolate, and whisky bottles.

And if my writing sucks, I can fix it, learn, and ask someone to...

... pass the single malt,

Pat


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Ch3 NC story SF/hospice/armband
https://bit.ly/2zTt58t" rel="nofollow - Ending; Happy?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 6:30pm
THANK YOU, PAT!!!

Your wish is my command. Beer
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Posted By: Talespinner
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Zelda Zelda wrote:

THANK YOU, PAT!!!

Your wish is my command. Beer
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Be careful what you wish for, Zelda Wink

Pat


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Ch3 NC story SF/hospice/armband
https://bit.ly/2zTt58t" rel="nofollow - Ending; Happy?


Posted By: GGreen
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Talespinner Talespinner wrote:

I refuse to allow writing to "suck". I think writers who tell new writers it's hard work should examine themselves. 

Are they not interested in their topic? Do they not love language, words, etymology? Is research boring? 

Do they like their audience, wish to connect? What's their mission in life? Why do they write? 

Why do they address new writers? Do they understand the power of suggestion?

To make writing fun, I only write stuff that engages me: subjects that arouse my curiosity, characters I love, or love to hate.

Now that's a tall order, especially here at NYCM, writing to prompts. But I've learned that a bit of research always turns up something. 

E.g. one of my prompts was a creamery. It wasn't long before the internet came up with a creamery in New Zealand way back when, owned by a co-operative of farmers who fell out. 

"Aha!" I thought. Conflict = story. And I wrote my very first mystery. Not a great one, but a story, and an MC who will almost certainly return some day...

That's the other part of writing that most definitely doesn't suck. The joy of discovering one can rise to the challenge.

Not to mention the characters who talk to one; who channel their story through their writer... 

Well, that can suck: I host a character who is a kestrel, and when she's annoyed, she flitters around and pecks at my skull--from the inside! 

I insist upon tools that are aesthetically pleasing: nice Parker pens, nice paper, decent word processor. A typing pit surrounded by authoritative dictionaries and thesauruses, a trusted encyclopedia, fine style guides, a book on fonts, favourite reference books; many on a bookshelf my son helped me to make when he was a kid. Comfort movies and background music on demand. 

Some might say, "Too many distractions." I say, "Only for one with neither focus nor commitment; they all have off switches; covers to close."

Throughout my working life (software engineer, management consultant, auditor, guitarist) I've found that if it sucks, something's wrong. 

In my book, only I, not writing, suck--at candies, chocolate, and whisky bottles.

And if my writing sucks, I can fix it, learn, and ask someone to...

... pass the single malt,

Pat

I LOVE THIS!!! Couldn't agree more. 


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FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment


Posted By: NellieKendall
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2018 at 3:29am

Originally posted by Talespinner Talespinner wrote:

I refuse to allow writing to "suck". I think writers who tell new writers it's hard work should examine themselves. 

Are they not interested in their topic? Do they not love language, words, etymology? Is research boring? 

Do they like their audience, wish to connect? What's their mission in life? Why do they write? 

Why do they address new writers? Do they understand the power of suggestion?

To make writing fun, I only write stuff that engages me: subjects that arouse my curiosity, characters I love, or love to hate.

Now that's a tall order, especially here at NYCM, writing to prompts. But I've learned that a bit of research always turns up something. 

E.g. one of my prompts was a creamery. It wasn't long before the internet came up with a creamery in New Zealand way back when, owned by a co-operative of farmers who fell out. 

"Aha!" I thought. Conflict = story. And I wrote my very first mystery. Not a great one, but a story, and an MC who will almost certainly return some day...

That's the other part of writing that most definitely doesn't suck. The joy of discovering one can rise to the challenge.

Not to mention the characters who talk to one; who channel their story through their writer... 

Well, that can suck: I host a character who is a kestrel, and when she's annoyed, she flitters around and pecks at my skull--from the inside! 

I insist upon tools that are aesthetically pleasing: nice Parker pens, nice paper, decent word processor. A typing pit surrounded by authoritative dictionaries and thesauruses, a trusted encyclopedia, fine style guides, a book on fonts, favourite reference books; many on a bookshelf my son helped me to make when he was a kid. Comfort movies and background music on demand. 

Some might say, "Too many distractions." I say, "Only for one with neither focus nor commitment; they all have off switches; covers to close."

Throughout my working life (software engineer, management consultant, auditor, guitarist) I've found that if it sucks, something's wrong. 

In my book, only I, not writing, suck--at candies, chocolate, and whisky bottles.

And if my writing sucks, I can fix it, learn, and ask someone to...

... pass the single malt,

Pat

Now this is a pep talk!


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3:Horrible Wife Murder (Historical) 8pt


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 2:37pm
I still think the pep talk is horrible. I just think it's awful to bandy around the word "suck" ten times, especially considering all the work NaNo does with children. It lacks class and refinement. It shows a distinct lack of character. It proves that unworthy people succeed all the time where the rest of us fail. I don't care if very few people agree with me. I have standards. Yeah, I'm slightly insane right now. I'd rather be insane than trashy and scuzzy and low in character. Dead
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Posted By: ankh
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2018 at 7:52pm
Anyone who has sat down and seriously written a story knows that it is work. They are well aware of the frustrations and humiliations and triumphs and 'a-ha' moments of writing. Most things in life that are worth doing are painstaking work, require an investment of time to hone a craft, and the rewards are hard won. That's fine. I feel like I have a similar relationship to writing as I do towards my job. It's engaging and interesting, and it teaches me things, but I'm not always feeling joy when I'm doing it. I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be compelling.
I thought the pep talk sounded a bit...I don't know... self righteous or something. Or maybe it was for a different audience of people... those who have never written and are a bit naive about just how engaged you have to be.


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https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic20316_post260136.html#260136.html" rel="nofollow - Round 1, Heat 30: A Pair of Au Pairs


Posted By: jennifer.quail
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2018 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by ankh Or maybe it was for a different audience of people... those who have never written and are a bit naive about just how engaged you have to be.<div><div>
</div></div>[/QUOTE ankh Or maybe it was for a different audience of people... those who have never written and are a bit naive about just how engaged you have to be.
[/QUOTE wrote:



The harshest truths I've even seen someone give on writing actually are whenever Mercedes Lackey answers questions about it on Quora as she's clearly been

The harshest truths I've even seen someone give on writing actually are whenever Mercedes Lackey answers questions about it on Quora as she's clearly been doing this long enough she pulls no punches (but while some of the professionals I know are sometimes less blunt, their message is the same.) And it's usually to people who've clearly never tried to write for an audience other than themselves or friends and family, and it's usually along the lines of: there is no writer's block (there isn't), pros don't have time to worry about it, authors don't muse around waiting for inspiration to strike because they have deadlines, ideas are worthless (true-every writer has a thousand ideas a day, the skilled labor is getting it into useful format on paper/screen) so no, no established writer is going to write your idea (ie do all the hard parts) and share credit...We both answered one question at about the same time about whether when authors put aside a finished book to 'let it stew' do they miss the characters and both of us said essentially the same thing--what is this 'putting it aside' you speak of, it's written for a purpose, sent off, and on to the next thing.

All of which sounds mean but is true. People have incredibly romanticized and rather silly views of writing. It's work. Much of it's not fun. The more "indie" you are the less fun it gets as you also have all the layout, design and marketing responsibilities. It takes time and it's not easy or about honing a craft (heck, THAT'S not easy, but when I want a craft I can dither at I oil paint, then I'm not procrastinating, I'm waiting for the glaze to set.) There are always things coming up you think you wouldn't have to deal with but you do. 

A lot of people want to write because they have this Hallmark-movie image of sitting around waiting for inspiration to strike and then pouring out your soul in creative bursts and it's poetic and perfect and the publisher is like "Of course we will publish it and make you rich and famous." If there's one thing NaNo is really good at it's learning you crank stuff out, go back, realize that it's mostly crap, but at least it's on paper, and you're going to have to rewrite, and then you discover no one wants to buy it, or yay they do, but here are the edits you need to make...and now, marketing! It's not any more glamorous than any other job and involves a lot of labor people aren't prepared for. It's like any other job that looks fun on the surface (no, being a cook isn't tons of fun, it's grimy and hot and unrewarding, but at least unlike writing it's a reliable paycheck! No, if you see people in a museum who clearly know their stuff, they probably aren't there for free. They may like their jobs, but it's still a job.)

Some of it's probably born out of frustration, too--especially some of what Misty posts sounds like, frankly, someone who has been working at this career for thirty years and is kind of tired of people assuming it's a cakewalk rather than a job, or having the whole "noble artist in a garret" image where it's all about suffering. No one who's successful during their lifetime does the 'DOING IT FOR THE ARRRRRTT" thing. Professor Greenberg, who teaches the Great Courses on classical music, called this notion out for musicians, pointing out that you can count on the fingers of one hand the pieces Mozart wrote for free, and described negotiating payment  with Beethoven as "trying to take a steak away from a hyena." Art sales are about self-marketing now and even in the good old days, van Gogh wasn't angsting that no one got his vision, he was angsting that he couldn't pay his bills. It gets old when you do something as a career and people come along thinking it's a piece of cake. 


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250 R1: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic56891_post611502.html#611502" rel="nofollow - What Even Is a Mirliton
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