#ownvoices
Printed From: NYC Midnight : Creative Writing & Screenwriting
Category: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Forum Name: Creative Writing Corner
Forum Description: Discuss NYC Midnight Creative Writing Competitions or Creative Writing in general.
URL: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=18860
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Topic: #ownvoices
Posted By: GGreen
Subject: #ownvoices
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 5:46am
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For challenge two of the FF contest (2018), I ended up learning a lot about the conflict in Syria in an effort to do justice to the story that had grabbed me in response to the prompts, while feeling a bit uncomfortable about the issue of #ownvoices (I am not Kurdish, I am not Syrian, and I have never had to be a refugee). I submitted my story, but I probably won't seek to publish it anywhere because I feel ambivalent about my right to tell this story... Would love to hear if anyone else has grappled with a similar issue?
------------- FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment
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Replies:
Posted By: MadEyeMary
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 8:19am
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I think that human resistance, pain, delight , is universal. I do see where you're coming from, but if you've made an effort to do it justice, to humanize the refugee plight, I wouldn't worry so much about this.
If we only wrote in the narrow bubble of what we've experienced, then imagination and empathy wouldn't need to exist.
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Posted By: ankh
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 8:31am
I've thought about this too - I reckon write what you want, don't resort to stereotypes and you should be fine. Sounds like an interesting story you wrote!
------------- https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic20316_post260136.html#260136.html" rel="nofollow - Round 1, Heat 30: A Pair of Au Pairs
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Posted By: HR Garcia
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 9:46am
MadEyeMary wrote:
I think that human resistance, pain, delight , is universal. I do see where you're coming from, but if you've made an effort to do it justice, to humanize the refugee plight, I wouldn't worry so much about this.
If we only wrote in the narrow bubble of what we've experienced, then imagination and empathy wouldn't need to exist. |
I agree with this. Also, when you have more time than 48 hours, try to get someone that IS represented in your story to do a Sensitivity Read for you.
------------- FF R1 http://bit.ly/2m6pRuL" rel="nofollow - The Finest French Lace - 0 points FF R2 http://bit.ly/2m6pRuL" rel="nofollow - The Many Indiscretions of Agent 592 - 14 points
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Posted By: GGreen
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 9:51am
HR Garcia wrote:
MadEyeMary wrote:
I think that human resistance, pain, delight , is universal. I do see where you're coming from, but if you've made an effort to do it justice, to humanize the refugee plight, I wouldn't worry so much about this.
If we only wrote in the narrow bubble of what we've experienced, then imagination and empathy wouldn't need to exist. |
I agree with this. Also, when you have more time than 48 hours, try to get someone that IS represented in your story to do a Sensitivity Read for you. |
That is a fantastic idea about a 'sensitivity read', it's so easy to take a misstep with these things. For instance, I found out that some names assigned to Kurdish people in the media are actually the names Turkish authorities insisted on, and are often intended to make them sound less Kurdish. I very very nearly fell into that trap, and only by chance found out in time.
------------- FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment
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Posted By: stephenmatlock
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:52am
Sensitivity readers are great.
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Posted By: sootfoot5
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:57pm
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sensitivity readers are good, but you know if you’ve gone to far. The readers are good for pointing out something you might not have considered, but the overall feeling, for lack of a better word, is up to you.
This round I appropriated an old Indian legend and reworked it for my prompts. I also added a more meaningful ending. I do not feel this is offensive because no particular tribe had claim to this legend; furthermore, I kept as much of the “gist” of the original story as possible. Actually, there wasn’t much of an original story there. If anything, I believe, I have brought the legend of the snake woman back into the light. Will others agree? Maybe, and then, maybe not. Some may not like my additions. They may not mind I made additions, but they might wish I’d gone a different way with them. Others may believe only an Indian has the right to embellish this story.
There are obviously arguments pro and con re what I have done. But my conscious is clear, and for most of us I believe that is the best measure as to whether what we have done is appropriate.
------------- https://forums.nycmidnight.com/r2-gp34-the-emperors-new-house_topic64419.html" rel="nofollow - My SS R2 Link
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Posted By: GGreen
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:05pm
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this so far. Aside from this competition, in terms of making your work saleable, I believe this #ownvoices consideration is becoming more and more pertinent for agents and publishers. I may be wrong, but that's the impression that I get.
It's such a tricky line to walk.
------------- FF22 Ch1 https://bit.ly/3xtyuAF" rel="nofollow - Treasure Every Moment
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Posted By: bleustick
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:27pm
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My original story idea this round (mystery/racetrack/crowbar) was to have bronze horse statues stolen from a defunct horse track, and for it to turn out to be a local Native American man scrapping the metal to use in building and repairing houses in a nearby reservation. It was inspired by a modern Blackfoot poet I like who once wrote a story about a young man who stole cars as a modern method of stealing back the horses white men stole from them. However, there were lots of flaws in my story idea. Not only did it seem like way too much story for 1000 words, but I am not full-blood Cherokee. I am not only mixed, but don't even look it the way my brothers do. Physically I "pass white." I've never lived on a reservation. I stood the chance, either way, of coming off as insensitive, painting Native Americans as criminals or poor or so forth. So I scrapped it.
It is hard sometimes to write in a thoughtful honest fashion about a race or gender or religion that isn't yours. I'm no Arthur Golden.
------------- FFC: 1 https://tinyurl.com/candycoatedffc" rel="nofollow - Candy-Coated (Pol-Sat) * 2 https://tinyurl.com/lovebeneathffc" rel="nofollow - Love Beneath (Fantasy)
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Posted By: sootfoot5
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:34pm
bleustick wrote:
My original story idea this round (mystery/racetrack/crowbar) was to have bronze horse statues stolen from a defunct horse track, and for it to turn out to be a local Native American man scrapping the metal to use in building and repairing houses in a nearby reservation. It was inspired by a modern Blackfoot poet I like who once wrote a story about a young man who stole cars as a modern method of stealing back the horses white men stole from them. However, there were lots of flaws in my story idea. Not only did it seem like way too much story for 1000 words, but I am not full-blood Cherokee. I am not only mixed, but don't even look it the way my brothers do. Physically I "pass white." I've never lived on a reservation. I stood the chance, either way, of coming off as insensitive, painting Native Americans as criminals or poor or so forth. So I scrapped it.
It is hard sometimes to write in a thoughtful honest fashion about a race or gender or religion that isn't yours. I'm no Arthur Golden. |
Perhaps the reason you and I feel differently is because your story identifies with a particular tribe whereas mine is so old that it is simply "Indian." But then, maybe not. Either way, I like the fact that you did what your conscious told you to do - that is exactly what I was saying. I hope you will read my story and be honest in your opinion. I think you will see where the big change from the original story comes, and I hope you will see what I did, in the end, was to use the Snake Woman legend as a hope for the future. But maybe that isn't relevant or important...anyway, I'd be glad for you to tell me what you thought.
------------- https://forums.nycmidnight.com/r2-gp34-the-emperors-new-house_topic64419.html" rel="nofollow - My SS R2 Link
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Posted By: bleustick
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 2:49pm
sootfoot5 wrote:
Perhaps the reason you and I feel differently is because your story identifies with a particular tribe whereas mine is so old that it is simply "Indian." But then, maybe not. Either way, I like the fact that you did what your conscious told you to do - that is exactly what I was saying. I hope you will read my story and be honest in your opinion. I think you will see where the big change from the original story comes, and I hope you will see what I did, in the end, was to use the Snake Woman legend as a hope for the future. But maybe that isn't relevant or important...anyway, I'd be glad for you to tell me what you thought.
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Oh, I feel different completely when it comes to mythology. Any culture's legends and mythology have universal threads and generally aren't offensive to adapt or reference within the literary world. That's, like, Charles de Lint's whole career. I use old fairy tales and mythology a lot, allegorically, in my novels. It takes a different measure of sensitivity and caution to write about another race or so forth in modern reality-based terms. And I already intended to read your story once it posts ^_^ . It sounded really interesting just from the title and tagline.
------------- FFC: 1 https://tinyurl.com/candycoatedffc" rel="nofollow - Candy-Coated (Pol-Sat) * 2 https://tinyurl.com/lovebeneathffc" rel="nofollow - Love Beneath (Fantasy)
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Posted By: sootfoot5
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 3:12pm
bleustick wrote:
sootfoot5 wrote:
Perhaps the reason you and I feel differently is because your story identifies with a particular tribe whereas mine is so old that it is simply "Indian." But then, maybe not. Either way, I like the fact that you did what your conscious told you to do - that is exactly what I was saying. I hope you will read my story and be honest in your opinion. I think you will see where the big change from the original story comes, and I hope you will see what I did, in the end, was to use the Snake Woman legend as a hope for the future. But maybe that isn't relevant or important...anyway, I'd be glad for you to tell me what you thought.
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Oh, I feel different completely when it comes to mythology. Any culture's legends and mythology have universal threads and generally aren't offensive to adapt or reference within the literary world. That's, like, Charles de Lint's whole career. I use old fairy tales and mythology a lot, allegorically, in my novels. It takes a different measure of sensitivity and caution to write about another race or so forth in modern reality-based terms. And I already intended to read your story once it posts ^_^ . It sounded really interesting just from the title and tagline. |
Well, I have heard of instances where different ethnic groups have been offended by someone using one of their legends, etc., in a story/novel. Frankly, I think they should be flattered so long as it is done tastefully -- now I realize "tastefully" is a matter of opinion, but then it is like obscenity, as the Supreme Court said, we know it when we see it. Some white writers, I believe, are frightened to write anything but pure white stories because of this. I know I've been criticized by the judges here for my portrayal of Southern blacks and the whites who interacted with them -- they say people just don't act that way. I don't think they have lived in the Deep South is what I'd like to say to them!
In other words, some people are always offended. It goes back to my conscious statement. Yes, some people don't have one. But a person who does will know whether they are being fair and true to the original legend or myth sufficiently. In mine, I tell the story of the original and then take it past it -- the original is very short. I see no harm in that; it is "the rest of the story."
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Posted By: Simeonb169
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 4:46pm
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Old myths and legends would have altered massively as they were passed orally down the generations, making them relevant for the times they were being told in. This is true of western legends as well - just look at the similarities/differences between Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman stories.
The versions that were eventually written down are no more "true" versions than ones that never saw the page. So long as the message is consistent, altering ancient myths should be fine as far as I can see, especially if they are being given a twist that again makes them more relevant for modern times.
However, I do accept that I am saying this from the point of view of someone who does not come from a culture that has been sneered at and derided by others. Perhaps if I did, I may have a different opinion.
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