NYC Midnight : Creative Writing & Screenwriting Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > GENERAL DISCUSSION > Creative Writing Corner
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How to Get Reads: A Social Experiment
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

How to Get Reads: A Social Experiment

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 9>
Author
Message
nod1v1ng View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Location: ChillybytheSea
Status: Offline
Points: 12497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (26) Thanks(26)   Quote nod1v1ng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How to Get Reads: A Social Experiment
    Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 8:05am

Hello lovelies - 

While we are awaiting confirmations to come tomorrow, I thought I would confess something. I've been conducting a social experiment on the forums and I thought I'd share the results with you. 

Often we hear people say - it's hard for newbies to get reads or you have to be a "cool kid" in order to get a lot of reads. Then, inevitably, an old schooler will reply with you have to give reads to get reads. I've been around a while, so I decided to design a social experiment to find out what it looks like to try and get reads as the proverbial new kid.

Over several comps, I signed up a couple of new forum users to see what would happen.

Overall, only a small handful of users read my story first, and 100% of those were new users. 75% of those were groupmates coming by to size up the competition. So, essentially, waiting around to get reads is not very productive--as an unknown you just aren't going to get a lot of unsolicited reads. This probably isn't surprising, because it is natural for people to remember users who they've enjoyed reading in the past and seek them out over reading a random unknown. 

Trying to get return reads seemed the way to go, so I set out to read 100 stories, equally split between other new users and people who have been around a long time. 

The overall return read rate across all 100 stories was only 53%. However, returns by forum users who have been around a while were at 69%, while newer users only return read at 37%.

The most likely users to return read were folks who have been around a while AND have a high level of points. Points--for those who do not know--simply correspond to how many posts and comments a user makes, so it is unsurprising that the individuals who are most likely to return read are people who are most active on the forums.

It seems that those who have been around longer, more fully subscribe to the general etiquette of if someone reads you, you return the favor. Although, hopefully this experiment will encourage more new folks to return reads! 

Anecdotally: Something I did notice, particularly of old schoolers, is that there's a general air that new forum users equate to new writers. My "newbie" forum handles were often treated as if they were novice writers, to the point where in a few instances it became a bit condescending. I gave the same reviews I would give as nod, but sometimes got a response like - and who are you to give me constructive crit? The return reviews were sometimes in the same vein - even compliments were somewhat patronizing. Wow, what a good job for a new writer. Pat. Pat.

It's worthwhile to remember that you have no idea who the person is behind the forum handle. A new user could still be a well published, award winning author. They could be a professional editor or a MFA Professor. There is absolutely no correlation between how long someone has participated in the forums and their experience with writing. 

TL;DR:
  • Even though 100 stories is a small sample size across thousands, the numbers seem to support that the best way to get reads is give reads. 
  • Active forum members are the most likely to return reads. 
  • Don't assume new forum users are new writers. 

Experiment complete! Take it as you will.



Edited by nod1v1ng - 30 Jan 2023 at 8:51am
Back to Top
Monsieur Renard View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Regular
NYC Midnight Regular
Avatar

Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote Monsieur Renard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 8:18am
Very interesting read, thanks for going into it. I personally make an effort to return all feedback I'm given. I've never strategically thought about who I want to leave feedback for, I just read and feed back on the ones I feel like I want to read.

 I *feel* like the reciprocation rate I get back is is higher than what you describe in your experiment, but I've never measured it so don't really know. Did you notice any drop off in reciprocation over time? I'm imagining people might start struggling with a backlog after a while.


Edited by Monsieur Renard - 30 Jan 2023 at 8:19am
Back to Top
fioOxf View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6625
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote fioOxf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 8:24am
I try to return all reads. On the odd occasion - like this round of rhyming - I get behind, because life... - but it'll probably end up as a race on Tuesday night, because I do feel that if other bothered to not just read but comment, I owe it to them. With Short Story, I'll have a bit more time for reading, and will alternate newbies with oldies - that's my usual strategy. But if I notice someone consistently doesn't return reads, I remember... Wink (I'm joking.)

Edited by fioOxf - 30 Jan 2023 at 5:45pm
Back to Top
nod1v1ng View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Location: ChillybytheSea
Status: Offline
Points: 12497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nod1v1ng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 8:25am
Originally posted by Monsieur Renard Monsieur Renard wrote:

Did you notice any drop off in reciprocation over time? I'm imagining people might start struggling with a backlog after a while.


Historically, there is a drop off in forum activity over time, particularly when a new comp/round begins. So, I specifically did my reads in the first week & a half (and spread them over multiple contests and rounds) in order to avoid the drop off rate.

A good chunk of my reads were people who had only 0-5 previous comments, so backlog did not seem to be much of a factor.
Back to Top
awinchester View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt


Joined: 19 Jan 2022
Status: Offline
Points: 1899
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote awinchester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 8:44am
I didn’t post my story last year, and probably won’t this year, but I spent my time in between the deadline and the results reading through the entries, top to bottom, and giving feedback. (I only made it about halfway through, though.)

I was just as surprised to receive many responses and messages asking for me to post my story so they could return the favor. If you have the time, you get back what you put in, and I learned a lot about short story writing by just reading others’ entries.

These forums, if a bit antiquated, are such an added value for writers, so I would encourage others to read through as well, not just in your category or subject. There is some very impressive creativity out there! 
Back to Top
theinquisitor View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2020
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 5036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote theinquisitor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 9:25am
That reminds me, I'm behind on my MF250 returns.
Interesting stuff, thank you. I suspect there's also a correlation between the quality of the feedback and how likely you are to get a return - I know I'm less inclined to reciprocate where it's a one-liner that doesn't even make it clear they've read my story, and is blatantly just fishing for return reads.
Back to Top
nod1v1ng View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Location: ChillybytheSea
Status: Offline
Points: 12497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nod1v1ng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 9:34am
Originally posted by theinquisitor theinquisitor wrote:

That reminds me, I'm behind on my MF250 returns.
Interesting stuff, thank you. I suspect there's also a correlation between the quality of the feedback and how likely you are to get a return - I know I'm less inclined to reciprocate where it's a one-liner that doesn't even make it clear they've read my story, and is blatantly just fishing for return reads.

That's very possible. For the experiment, I gave my typical reviews - meaning a few things I loved, and a couple things that I thought could use attention, with a final overall wrap up. Generally 2-3 paras, even for micros.  
Back to Top
FireHorse View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt


Joined: 13 Jul 2020
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 4337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 9:38am
What an interesting and thought-provoking experiment.

Nod, I see you also commented in the 'Replying to Comments' thread.
The discussion there made me wonder whether the default setting for 'notify me of replies to posts' has changed. I don't think I ever set up my profile to get notifications, but my default is that I get them. From the posts in that thread, the newer members didn't appear to have that by default.
Could skew the results. If there was a change and depending on when it happened.

However, it would have zero impact on the tone of return reads from comments you left. That's terrifying. 

I don't *think* I treat new and established forum members with different levels of respect. Some old hands I have interacted with before - either on the forums or in beta, and a few by private message. So these people I have a relationship with and that may change things, but it shouldn't change level of respect.

Doesn't surprise me that you got more replies from the members who'd been here longer. Over time, I'd expect the ones who don't reply to drop off the forums more quickly - they are almost by definition less engaged - so that means the established members are on average more likely to reply.

As for how I choose reads, it's one or all of the following, in more or less descending order.
- group mates. Hell yeah, I wanna check out the competition! Just as importantly, I love seeing how other people interpreted exactly the same prompts.
- anyone who comments on my piece in that contest and round. The goal is to reciprocate with everyone. Isn't that just polite???
- people whose previous writing I have read and enjoyed.
- interesting titles which catch my eye as I scroll down the Master List
- people who are the only one of their group in the forums. At least as far as the master list shows. I feel they might need some TLC since it's lonely when you're the only one.
- people in groups with same genre I had, or with really intriguing prompts. (Curiosity as to how other have handled those prompts...)
- people whose stories are on page one of the contest subforum when I have done all the above and still want to read more. (This one means if other people comment I might be more likely to see them, but at times the front page changes so fast that's irrelevant!)

When I spot newbies / others whose stories are not on the master list or who don't have a link in their signature, I often suggest those options to increase their visibility. Note that on mobile I can't see signatures, so it doesn't always happen.

Like all of us I am human and don't always manage to live up to the standards I preach, but that overall 53% return read rate is far lower than I expected. A bit sad, really.

*** 
Thanks for doing the experiment, and thanks for sharing too.

Back to Top
JanetM View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Black Belt
NYC Midnight Black Belt
Avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2017
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 3215
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JanetM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 10:06am
Very interesting experiment! Thanks for doing it and sharing. 

It's funny about the "new person = new writer" part. I wonder if that is part of all internet message boards where there are regulars. The sharing of personal art amplifies it. "You're new and and don't know how things are done around here" as a subconscious feeling. Then add a new person offering feedback.

I start off strong with feedback. Then I get behind, but try to finish eventually. There are people who never return reads, for sure. I assume the worst and move on. LOL

I feel like I've gotten "better" at giving feedback after being here awhile now (thank you NYC Midnight) and via my writing critique group, but I do think it's a tricky thing and it's hard to know how your comments are received. Even when you think you've been positive and fair. (Sorry if I've ever offended anyone.) Just this last round I was mentioning some beta feedback to my daughter and she got offended on my behalf. LOL My beta was just giving me helpful suggestions. 




Edited by JanetM - 30 Jan 2023 at 11:15am
G81 SS The Momento
Micro250 The Younger Man HM
R2 G10 Rhyming The Substitute HM
Back to Top
hungrywriter View Drop Down
NYC Midnight Addict
NYC Midnight Addict


Joined: 22 Jan 2022
Status: Offline
Points: 911
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hungrywriter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2023 at 10:29am
Interesting! especially re: condescending tone to newbies. I wonder what made you feel patronized on the newbie accounts- since you are very published/established, some advice that might feel condescending to you may not be read the same for a user truly finding their bearings in fiction. If someone mentioned they were new or it was their first time entering, I would probably be more encouraging about their work and gentler when pointing out crits, while trying to highlight their strengths. I could see someone established rolling their eyes at that or viewing it as pandering stuff they already know, when for a newcomer it can be essential encouragement.

Of course, there's a difference between knowing someone is new at writing and just guessing based on their profile. Which is what makes your findings so interesting!

And that being said, I know the patronizing does happen... I remember feeling a bit bummed my first contest by some comments that felt overly blunt or backhanded. (Rarely were those comments given by someone who seemed to be established on the forum.) Over time those comments have affected me less as "I'm a terrible writer" and more as "this component didn't come across/won't land for some readers." But it did take a bit for me to learn.

Just some thoughts! I bet it was kind of fun to go undercover like this. Thanks for sharing the results!


Edited by hungrywriter - 30 Jan 2023 at 10:49am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.