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Good scorers who don't progress -- FFC

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Topic: Good scorers who don't progress -- FFC
Posted By: Vernacula
Subject: Good scorers who don't progress -- FFC
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 7:30am
Hello, friends! Last FFC was my first time out in that contest, and I didn't progress after what I thought were pretty decent scores in the first rounds (15 + 10 = 25 total). Does that tend to happen a lot? Maybe I just completely burned out during the third round.

Of course I'm here mostly for the challenge, but I put a lot of myself into the contest and work (as I know we all do!). I just don't know how often the fun of it all is tempered by disappointment for some from a results/feedback/math standpoint. Pure curiosity...do the numbers help or hinder? Appreciate the input.

And again, I know it's good practice, two rounds guaranteed, great community, not here to win, etc. Just asking an honest question. ;-)

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Replies:
Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 12:09pm
I have noticed this happening in the lower groups, mostly.  My thinking is that the old hands want to take advantage of the cheaper entry fee and NYC Midnight is filling up the groups as the entries come in - they do it this way, I am assuming, because they can't know how many will enter.  I would say you managed to get put into a tight group.

Now, as you say, the feedback can be far less than what is needed to improve our lot in a next contest.  What, I think would really help a writer would be knowing where we scored well and where we needed improvement, other than the run of the mill comments of the judges.  The rules state: scoring is split up into three sections.  Each feedback should then have, along with the judge's number, his scoring of the story, 10/15/55 sort of format.  As it is, I have no idea how my story got the points it did, only the judges stating that I need to . . .  It would be nice to be able to concentrate on what is giving us trouble.


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Posted By: Vernacula
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 12:19pm
Thanks for the input, Suave! I hadn't thought about how the rounds are filled out. I do agree, it feels a little weird to have our scores in early rounds and then...nothing. I expect it in a contest like SSC, because we don't ever see scores. In FF, it would be helpful to have that through-line and info on solid areas for improvement.

I'm just wondering if I'm up for it again. I got two great pieces out of it (maybe three? Hard to tell), but it felt sort of empty at the end.


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Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 12:31pm
Yes, I know your pain.  I really enjoy the chase though.  I know my grammar and punctuation is very weak, had a brain injury and I just can't quite wrap my head around it - can be elusive.  I have been trying to get an advance out of a really good story, but I am afraid that is not enough, especially with the burgeoning numbers of contestants.


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Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 7:54pm
You didn't get through with 25? Wow. Some folks get through with just 15.... Very unlucky there.

BG


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Posted By: fistofcurry
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 12:44pm
You should have been able to see the scores of the other people in your cluster. They also do a thing where if two people tie for a final score in position number 5, the writer with the higher score in the second round goes forward. So it's possible someone else in your heat got 25 and went forward because they had 10 in the first round and 15 in the second.

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Posted By: steph9289
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 12:54pm
I could be totally wrong here, but I thought Vernacula was referring to not making it past the 3rd round even though she had good scores in the first two scored rounds.

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Posted By: Vernacula
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

Yes, I know your pain.  I really enjoy the chase though.  I know my grammar and punctuation is very weak, had a brain injury and I just can't quite wrap my head around it - can be elusive.  I have been trying to get an advance out of a really good story, but I am afraid that is not enough, especially with the burgeoning numbers of contestants.


I'm so sorry to hear of this! It's amazing that you keep pushing through. I have a spinal injury myself, and often get spinal headaches/migraines from the stress of timed writing. I feel your pain. Sending you all the sales juju for your story. Hope you get (got?) that advance! Smile


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Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

Yes, I know your pain.  I really enjoy the chase though.  I know my grammar and punctuation is very weak, had a brain injury and I just can't quite wrap my head around it - can be elusive.  I have been trying to get an advance out of a really good story, but I am afraid that is not enough, especially with the burgeoning numbers of contestants.


I'm so sorry to hear of this! It's amazing that you keep pushing through. I have a spinal injury myself, and often get spinal headaches/migraines from the stress of timed writing. I feel your pain. Sending you all the sales juju for your story. Hope you get (got?) that advance! Smile


Thanks for your thoughts.  No, have not got yet!  But, have a few scores and a honorable mention on one.  I enjoy the birthing process - sorry can't help myself.  Good luck to you in the upcoming FFC!  Big smile


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Posted By: ShroudedWolf
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 5:23pm
Yeah, you were unlucky to be in a group where you didn't advance with 25. I don't remember for sure, but I think I had 27 to advance, then didn't get to the final. 

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Posted By: Trond24
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 10:15pm
>>Hello, friends! Last FFC was my first time out in that contest, and I didn't progress after what I thought were pretty decent scores in the first rounds (15 + 10 = 25 total). Does that tend to happen a lot? Maybe I just completely burned out during the third round. 

I think a couple people misunderstood that you didn't make it through to the 3rd round. Bolding that in case they look again.

I had the same sort of issue: scored 14 and ??7,8?? - I made it through to the third round and didn't make it. So I heard nothing besides the "standard" feedback with what I also considered a pretty good story.

But here's how I reconciled it: in the first two rounds it was the same (I believe they say randomly assigned) people I was competing against but in the third, every single person had also made it past those first two rounds. So not coming in (what was it, top 4?) was not really the fault of a bad story, it was tickling those particular judges for round 3's genre. Would you feel better if you knew you'd come in 5th? :-P

I'm in again this year, hoping there is no sophomore slump. :-)

Regards,
Trond


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Posted By: nixie
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 6:32pm
It isn't just a matter of the judges, though that certainly can make a difference. 

1. Each challenge (your third story is the third challenge - it's actually only the *second* round of the competition, since Round One includes two challenges. :) ) is a different set of prompts.  Even if you write a good story - the fact is, sometimes we get a genre we don't relate to or the prompts just don't speak to us.  If it's 'better than you expected for a genre you don't cotton to" that might mean it is good - or it might mean it didn't suck as bad as you thought it would and you are relieved, but should not quit your day job/primary genre. ;)

2. In the first round, you are competing against "anyone who paid an entry fee."  In the second round, you are competing against "the competitors who didn't get weeded out in Round One."  Whether that weeding was "luck of the prompts' or "writing skill" or a hundred other things, the fact remains that by the time you begin challenge #3, 85% of contestants are no longer in the game, and you are competing against the 15% who remain.  Your story has to be a lot better to stand out among that group than it did in the first two challenges. 

You can write a good story - FAR better than your challenge one and two stories - and it can still not be nearly as good as the competition. After all, they already wrote two good stories too or they wouldn't be in this round.

After all of that, THEN there is the matter of whether this particular group of judges "gets you" :)

[I know - the question was about Round Two progression - but the mechanic is more obvious in that example.]

This same mechanic works throughout the contest.  This exercise is graded on the curve - it isn't enough to "get 90% and you get an A" - only 4-5 As will be awarded, and you must "score better than all of the other students" in order to be one of them.  It's not just about how well you did personally, but whether your best was better than someone else's best. :)



Posted By: topangarose
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 11:51pm
What Nixie said is a good way to look at it as a whole. In my little corner of the world, I just know that I love the challenge, I get to write two stories and will come out the other side with at least two stories. Of course we all love the idea of moving forward, but the joy of writing is the trigger for me. When I end up with a "less than" score, I may be disappointed, but there's always the forum  for feedback if you want to go that way, and I have found that far more valuable in terms of rating than the variable points awarded by a couple of judges, so I've learned to live for the thrill of just writing, not the expectation of winning.

After hanging around this comp for a long time I can tell you from experience that sometimes you win and sometimes you just lose it all. Either way, it's exhilarating and time often reveals things you didn't realize about your story in the first place.


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Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 12:00am
It would be nice if they included how we scored in the feedback.  They do after all score on three aspects, telling us that would be way more helpful than their feedback.  I too enjoy the writing or I would not enter, but I would really like to know what they don't seem to want to tell us.


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Posted By: Hrafnkel
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 3:36am
Hello, Vernacula: it's great to see you again!

There's some good ideas here, and I particularly agree with Nixie's assessment.

I seem to recall that 7 of the 2100 entrants last year had a perfect score of 15/15 through 2 rounds; but only 2 of these 7 made the final, and neither of those 2 made the top 10.

83% of the perfect scores were eliminated in round 3 (84% of the overall survivors are eliminated at that stage). With those numbers, some fantastic writers are getting ditched, no matter what.

I have not double-checked that, so my memory from 5 months ago may be faulty, but it should be close. It's just the nature of the beast.

Your first-round story from last year is still one of my favorites of the entire competition.

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Posted By: Hrafnkel
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 3:51am
And just to follow-on with that thought, there's a huge amount of luck involved in the ordering of the stories, to wit:

My own path looked like this:

R1: 1st out of 35 (15 points) [2100 writers]
R2: 8th out of 35 (8 points -- 4th in aggregate R1/2 score, top 5 advance) [2100 writers]
R3: 2nd out of 25 (top 4 advance) [300 writers]
R4: 6th out of 48 [48 writers]

Now, just imagine I get my R3 prompt in R2: I score 29 points through the first 2 rounds (heck, since the group is easier, I probably get 30);

But then I get that R2 Crime Caper prompt in R3. That thing was a grind for me. I am seriously not a writer of capers. Boom, I'm out, just based on the order of prompts and how they worked for me (R1 was Fairy Tale, R3 was Horror: both right in my wheelhouse).

Again, if I recall correctly, the overall winner also went 15/8 (or maybe 8/15); she gets that 8-prompt in R3? Boom, done.

I got 6th overall. I wrote really well. A lot of people wrote really well. Failing to recognize the fair bit of luck that was involved would be a pretty big error, I think.

I don't think there are tricks to this: you're an excellent writer -- maybe this time it all falls into place for you, although the numbers are against all of us. It's unlikely I'll improve on 6th overall; it's equally unlikely that I'm a worse writer than I was last year.

Just my $0.02 -- Cheers!

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Posted By: lisafox10800
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 10:25am
There are so many factors that come into play. As noted, it's the luck of the draw with your prompts and genre. It's the relative skill of the participants in your group. It's the proclivities and personalities of the judges who are reading your work and, I would imagine at least to some extent, if they had enough coffee that morning. In my humble opinion, I do believe the order in which your story is read and critiqued relative to others could also play a role (I'm a market researcher by trade, and order bias is a big deal). 

In the three NYC Midnight comps I've participated in, I've seen some great stories not get any acknowledgement and some mediocre stories make the top five. 

Personally, I feel like some of my best work was panned by the judges and some my writing that I've felt 'meh' about has done well, much to my surprise.  

I've had judges give me completely different opinions on the same story (I loved it! I hated it! This section was wonderful! This section didn't make sense!). I've had some completely willing to suspend disbelief and others with a clear lack of understanding of the genre they were evaluating. 

So there's really no rhyme or reason to it.

I'm just learning to enjoy the ride. 

Which starts again in a day and a half. Woo hoo! :) 


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Posted By: nixie
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 11:21am
Originally posted by lisafox10800 lisafox10800 wrote:

In the three NYC Midnight comps I've participated in, I've seen some great stories not get any acknowledgement and some mediocre stories make the top five. 

Originally posted by lisafox10800 lisafox10800 wrote:

I've had judges give me completely different opinions on the same story (I loved it! I hated it! This section was wonderful! This section didn't make sense!). I've had some completely willing to suspend disbelief and others with a clear lack of understanding of the genre they were evaluating. 

While we may sometimes find this 'unfair' (or whatevs - insert favorite word), this is a great time to point out that "50 shades" is a best-seller and Jo Rowling got some *horrible pans for the writing in Potter (and was rejected a dozen times before finding a publisher).  

Great short stories get rejected by good markets and capable editors because they "don't fit" or someone "didn't like your writing style" or because the reader didn't have enough coffee, or because the story they read just before yours wasn't as good but had a dog named Petey, and the editor used to have a dog named Petey.

These circumstances and outcomes aren't somehow special to NYCM - they are a realistic reflection of what we face as writers in *every market.  :)



Posted By: lisafox10800
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 11:38am
Originally posted by nixie nixie wrote:

Originally posted by lisafox10800 lisafox10800 wrote:

In the three NYC Midnight comps I've participated in, I've seen some great stories not get any acknowledgement and some mediocre stories make the top five. 

Originally posted by lisafox10800 lisafox10800 wrote:

I've had judges give me completely different opinions on the same story (I loved it! I hated it! This section was wonderful! This section didn't make sense!). I've had some completely willing to suspend disbelief and others with a clear lack of understanding of the genre they were evaluating. 

While we may sometimes find this 'unfair' (or whatevs - insert favorite word), this is a great time to point out that "50 shades" is a best-seller and Jo Rowling got some *horrible pans for the writing in Potter (and was rejected a dozen times before finding a publisher).  

Great short stories get rejected by good markets and capable editors because they "don't fit" or someone "didn't like your writing style" or because the reader didn't have enough coffee, or because the story they read just before yours wasn't as good but had a dog named Petey, and the editor used to have a dog named Petey.

These circumstances and outcomes aren't somehow special to NYCM - they are a realistic reflection of what we face as writers in *every market.  :)


Yes, indeed!


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lisafoxiswriting.com
My short story collection, Core Truths, is now available wherever books are sold.


Posted By: Hrafnkel
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 2:49pm
[/QUOTE]

These circumstances and outcomes aren't somehow special to NYCM - they are a realistic reflection of what we face as writers in *every market.  :)

[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Kathryn Stockett's manuscript for the novel, "The Help," was rejected 60 times before being published. It was then made into a film that received 4 Academy Award nominations (1 win).

It's better written than manuscripts that have had a much easier time getting published. This happens all the time. That's not a rationalization or a defense: it just is what it is.

I would hate to think that any of us would fail to live in the richness of our creations b/c of the banality of a single judgment, however much we may be predisposed to hearing only the negative, corrective, or painful. That's not to say that we should be deaf to criticism, but we shouldn't let it overwhelm us either. That's hugely difficult emotionally, but rationally it's a solid path.

Aside from that, if you did a distribution analysis of Round 3, you'd probably find a story or 2 that would have garnered a 15 in rounds 1-2, but that finished 5th in group and failed to advance. That is a very thin margin, and one for which I don't think we could blame any judge.




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Posted By: sootfoot5
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I have noticed this happening in the lower groups, mostly.  My thinking is that the old hands want to take advantage of the cheaper entry fee and NYC Midnight is filling up the groups as the entries come in - they do it this way, I am assuming, because they can't know how many will enter.  I would say you managed to get put into a tight group.


While this is a reasonable guess on how NYC does things, it is incorrect. I am an optometrist here. I always take advantage of the early entry discount. AND the coupon! I have found myself in as high a group as 55.

Grouping the competitors can easily be done by computer. Those in charge can do it in a matter of minutes. They can wait till all the entries are in and spin the wheel, so to speak.

However, you may be correct that this phenomom may have happened primarily in the lowered numbered groups, but if so, not because NYC purposely grouped the regular writers there.


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Posted By: sootfoot5
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 3:13pm
I am LMAO! I didn't write that I was an optometrist! I wrote old-timer! Damn autocorrect!

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Posted By: nixie
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by sootfoot5 sootfoot5 wrote:

I am LMAO! I didn't write that I was an optometrist! I wrote old-timer! Damn autocorrect!


mmm.  I got a new phone a couple of months ago, and it's auto-"correct" is still the bane of my existence.


Posted By: rossinny
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by sootfoot5 sootfoot5 wrote:

I am LMAO! I didn't write that I was an optometrist! I wrote old-timer! Damn autocorrect!


LOL. I was trying for the life of me to work out the link! I thought, perhaps he just SEES things really clearly.... haha

And 'an optometrist here'... as if there's loads of them at the site doing their thing. Haha, that has tickled me.

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Posted By: paulene.turner
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 3:12am
Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Thanks for the input, Suave! I hadn't thought about how the rounds are filled out. I do agree, it feels a little weird to have our scores in early rounds and then...nothing. I expect it in a contest like SSC, because we don't ever see scores. In FF, it would be helpful to have that through-line and info on solid areas for improvement.

I'm just wondering if I'm up for it again. I got two great pieces out of it (maybe three? Hard to tell), but it felt sort of empty at the end.

Please Vernacular, you must enter. Your work is always so excellent, it sets a benchmark for many of us. It is good to have good people to go up against; it makes us all lift our game. And your stories are always worth reading. 


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Posted By: tcFlash
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by sootfoot5 sootfoot5 wrote:

Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I have noticed this happening in the lower groups, mostly.  My thinking is that the old hands want to take advantage of the cheaper entry fee and NYC Midnight is filling up the groups as the entries come in - they do it this way, I am assuming, because they can't know how many will enter.  I would say you managed to get put into a tight group.


While this is a reasonable guess on how NYC does things, it is incorrect. I am an optometrist here. I always take advantage of the early entry discount. AND the coupon! I have found myself in as high a group as 55.

Grouping the competitors can easily be done by computer. Those in charge can do it in a matter of minutes. They can wait till all the entries are in and spin the wheel, so to speak.

However, you may be correct that this phenomom may have happened primarily in the lowered numbered groups, but if so, not because NYC purposely grouped the regular writers there.

I'm due for an eye exam. Do you have any openings?


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Posted By: Averah
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I have noticed this happening in the lower groups, mostly.  My thinking is that the old hands want to take advantage of the cheaper entry fee and NYC Midnight is filling up the groups as the entries come in - they do it this way, I am assuming, because they can't know how many will enter.  I would say you managed to get put into a tight group.




I registered late, and am in a ver low group number. I think entries are just randomized.


Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Averah Averah wrote:

Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I have noticed this happening in the lower groups, mostly.  My thinking is that the old hands want to take advantage of the cheaper entry fee and NYC Midnight is filling up the groups as the entries come in - they do it this way, I am assuming, because they can't know how many will enter.  I would say you managed to get put into a tight group.




I registered late, and am in a ver low group number. I think entries are just randomized.


Yes, I think you are right.  I registered early and have a high number this time, but in times past always had a low number.  The last FFC all the heats won with a single score were in the high numbers, that was my reason for making the supposition.


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Posted By: ottersdaughter
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

Yes, I know your pain.  I really enjoy the chase though.  I know my grammar and punctuation is very weak, had a brain injury and I just can't quite wrap my head around it - can be elusive.  I have been trying to get an advance out of a really good story, but I am afraid that is not enough, especially with the burgeoning numbers of contestants.

If you ever want someone to read specifically to help with the grammar and conventions, ping me (contest or otherwise, though I'll need lead time if it's long). I'm an English teacher and a line editor/proofreader at heart. You helped us all out during the short story contest, I'm happy to return the favor in a somewhat different venue :)


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Posted By: Suave
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by ottersdaughter ottersdaughter wrote:

Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

Yes, I know your pain.  I really enjoy the chase though.  I know my grammar and punctuation is very weak, had a brain injury and I just can't quite wrap my head around it - can be elusive.  I have been trying to get an advance out of a really good story, but I am afraid that is not enough, especially with the burgeoning numbers of contestants.

If you ever want someone to read specifically to help with the grammar and conventions, ping me (contest or otherwise, though I'll need lead time if it's long). I'm an English teacher and a line editor/proofreader at heart. You helped us all out during the short story contest, I'm happy to return the favor in a somewhat different venue :)


Thank you so much!  I may take you up on that, it will be your Sunday night though, I do not find it helpful early in the proccess, so I will private message you if I get ready in time.  Thanks, again.


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Posted By: nixie
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

Originally posted by Averah Averah wrote:

 
I registered late, and am in a ver low group number. I think entries are just randomized.


Yes, I think you are right.  I registered early and have a high number this time, but in times past always had a low number.  The last FFC all the heats won with a single score were in the high numbers, that was my reason for making the supposition.

Let's put this to rest.  I registered Iratus and me at the same time, within 72 hours of the opening of registration.  He's in group 7. I am in group 80.

A friend who registered with less than an hour til deadline is in Rats' group 7.

Randomized in some fashion.


Posted By: Vernacula
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 10:12am
Thanks for the thoughts, all. I forgot about this thread as I got caught up in Screenplay and moving. Both a PITA, but will hopefully end well. ;-)


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Posted By: tcFlash
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts, all. I forgot about this thread as I got caught up in Screenplay and moving. Both a PITA, but will hopefully end well. ;-)
It's good to see you here.


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Posted By: ottersdaughter
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts, all. I forgot about this thread as I got caught up in Screenplay and moving. Both a PITA, but will hopefully end well. ;-)

I'm with you on moving being a PITA. We moved at the end of June, to the same city we used to live in, and I'm not sure how much longer it'll be before we're really settled! I hope yours goes smoothly!


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2017 ShSc HM
2016 FFC & ShSc Finalist


Posted By: Vernacula
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:

Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts, all. I forgot about this thread as I got caught up in Screenplay and moving. Both a PITA, but will hopefully end well. ;-)
It's good to see you here.


Right back at you, tc! Wink

And thanks for the kind thoughts, @ottersdaughter.


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Posted By: Vernacula
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by paulene.turner paulene.turner wrote:

Originally posted by Vernacula Vernacula wrote:

Thanks for the input, Suave! I hadn't thought about how the rounds are filled out. I do agree, it feels a little weird to have our scores in early rounds and then...nothing. I expect it in a contest like SSC, because we don't ever see scores. In FF, it would be helpful to have that through-line and info on solid areas for improvement.

I'm just wondering if I'm up for it again. I got two great pieces out of it (maybe three? Hard to tell), but it felt sort of empty at the end.

Please Vernacular, you must enter. Your work is always so excellent, it sets a benchmark for many of us. It is good to have good people to go up against; it makes us all lift our game. And your stories are always worth reading. 


Oh, Paulene, you are too good to me. My story is garbage. I set a bar for something, no doubt. Haha. But thanks for your supportive and generous words!


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