Print Page | Close Window

Judging Error

Printed From: NYC Midnight : Creative Writing & Screenwriting
Category: GENERAL DISCUSSION
Forum Name: Screenwriting Bar & Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss NYC Midnight Screenwriting Competitions or Screenwriting in general.
URL: https://forums.nycmidnight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12179
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 6:51am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Judging Error
Posted By: BlackGate
Subject: Judging Error
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 5:08pm
NYC Midnight,

I have been sent feedback for a different script to the one I submitted to Round 3 of the Short Screenplay competition. Only one judge has commented on any content in my screenplay. Please review urgently - I think there has been a judging mistake.

As below the text in red has nothing to do with my screenplay. Please review urgently and reply today. This will be posted elsewhere in the forum.

Thanks Paul



''I'll Keep You Safe and Happy'' by Paul Draper - WHAT THE JUDGE(S) LIKED ABOUT YOUR SCREENPLAY - ...I really like where this was going, love the idea of a “death clock” game, can’t get more ominous than that. Also, great image of the truck driver struggling with the heat. .........The ending is a nice twist, after the fairly obvious first twist.  The feeling of a family stuck together in cramped quarters is established efficiently and credibly.  The teenaged boy coming of age is nicely drawn as well.  Most of the dialogue flows nicely.  The visual contrast between the cold, clinical truck interior and the desert at night around the campfire is striking.......I really enjoyed the setting of a gas station – ripe for horror moments. The idea of a haunted Zaltar type of game that brings about people’s deaths is fascinating. Or is the Attendant that’s cursing people? ...............................................................…........................   WHAT THE JUDGES FEEL NEEDS WORK - ...You had me for the most part, but I was a little confused by a few things. I was unsure about why the blizzard was there if it never really paid off? Because the trucker died in June, I got why the attendant was dressed the certain way and the man at the end but I didn’t get why we would see the trucker driving in a blizzard if it’s actually June (supposedly when he died). I was also confused at the presence of the man in the end. I didn’t understand what his purpose really was, I guess other than revealing the rest of the newspaper article. It was pretty clear to me at that point that it was how the trucker died, so I don’t think bringing in that other guy in the end is really doing anything for you. .........At least in part because I know that the contest requires a refrigerated truck, I thought the family was living under refrigeration on the first read.  The geography of the truck is a little unclear; there's the cab, which somehow has a door to the compartment, which is walled off into two spaces, one of which is refrigerated, and is accessible from both inside the truck and outside, but they can't see out of the living compartment...?  Some of the dialogue is very on-the-nose.......While it’s a neat concept, we’re not really certain of what’s going on here. Is it the arcade machine that’s killing people? Is it the attendant? What element is causing so many people to crash and die after stopping by this station? 

Adding more to Ike’s character could do wonders for the script. Give him some other conflict or element to play with in these scenes other than a guy delivering ice. It gets creepy when he dies, but in between those moments, the audience needs to be just as engaged. ...........................….........................................................



-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom



Replies:
Posted By: Ramsey
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 7:08pm
Did you email them ?

-------------
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13xLGTVmuk4mjTEsWcFrvgmOKUFoQdQi3/view" rel="nofollow - C2 Group 8 - Tis The Season


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 7:31pm
Yep got a reply. They've admitted the error and are looking into it. 

Not ideal...


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Ramsey
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 7:32pm
Keep us updated. I hope it gets sorted. !!

-------------
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13xLGTVmuk4mjTEsWcFrvgmOKUFoQdQi3/view" rel="nofollow - C2 Group 8 - Tis The Season


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 7:39pm
Cheers Ramsey. It's complicated, as I got one score from my screenplay and two scores from another writer's. The other writer got two scores from my screenplay and one from his own (that writer got an honorable mention).

I'm hoping to get a breakdown of the correct three scores. It might have crept me into the top five, or maybe not. Either way I won't get that until R4 is well underway in a few hours, and I doubt they'll want to contact another writer and tell them they didn't get through after all even if that's the case.

Quite a cock up. Not best pleased.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Reez
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 8:46pm
Well that makes sense! I couldn't for the life of me understand why you didn't make the final. I think if the figures add up it wouldn't hurt anyone to add you in and even if you miss a couple of hours go for it!!

Hope it works out!

-------------
MFC/Final https://rb.gy/iboxr" rel="nofollow - A Whistle and a Cry
MFC250/R1 https://forums.nycmidnight.com/r1-g13-expecting-ghost-story_topic57098.html" rel="nofollow - Expecting


Posted By: Hollyvict
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 9:08pm
Everything about this round was extremely sloppy - even by NYCM standards. First the screenplay loglines were wrong, and now this.

-------------
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic18273_post227999.html#227999" rel="nofollow - C1 Fifty Shades More Romantic Than Twilight


Posted By: Scarlet Screenwriter
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 3:09am

Bee Gee ...

"All Judging Is Error" ... I think that was scrawled on a wall in Pompeii ... "quia omnes iudicandi erroris" ...

The judges cut and paste a bunch of comments just like school teachers on reports ... though you'd think by Round Three they'd take a little more care ... Maybe they have a random judging comments generator like the prompts! 

I usually don't pay that much attention!  Maybe I'll look closer next time ...









 


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 4:31am
Pretty poor show. After the markdown for "Austria having nothing to do with the second world war" I got in last year's flash, I'm starting to reconsider the value of spending cash on NYCM.

-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Scarlet Screenwriter
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 7:18am

Obviously the one person in the world who hasn't seen THE SOUND OF MUSIC!

You know bloody Yanks only know their own history ... And little of that considering how often they are doomed to repeat it.   They believe they won both World Wars and the wars only started when they got there ... 1917 and 1941 ...

Chins up, BG ... Stiff upper lip ... None of us are here for the judging and it does offer comic relief!






Posted By: rwe15
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 5:34am
"I think there has been a judging mistake"

Wasn't me!Smile   I didn't judge this round.Cry


"The judges cut and paste a bunch of comments just like school teachers on reports..."

Well, yes, but not in the way you think.Shocked  I usually make my initial comments to myself on word or even actual bits of actual paper.  Then have to cut and paste or enter in the EXCEL spreadsh*t - which I think is the culprit.  When the title is in slot A and the comments are in something far way like G and you are not familiar with Excel - and the way it acts on my computer screen Unhappy you do have to be careful.

But it has almost happened to meWacko, but only because I usually triple-check have I caught a false cut&paste.

I also many times reread stories (even sometimes twi
ce) to make absolutely sure of their overall placement vs the field.  I'm sure my judgement sucksOuch at times even so.  But I do tryGeek  And reading a script that really delivers is a real joy.Clap  Which is why I love this contest so.Beer

Had to get my emoticon fix for the month as you can tellThumbs Up


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 7:51am
Emoticon-fest! 

 Yes I think a spreadsheet is the original issue. Looks like NYCM checks and oversight aren't what they should be though. In the end its their own reputation that suffers with errors.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: lizsmith5499
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 10:34am
Originally posted by BlackGate BlackGate wrote:

Pretty poor show. After the markdown for "Austria having nothing to do with the second world war" I got in last year's flash, I'm starting to reconsider the value of spending cash on NYCM.

you are kidding. you must be kidding.


-------------
R1 Screenplay

https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic21090_post274684.html#274684" rel="nofollow - LOST AND LIKED


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by lizsmith5499 lizsmith5499 wrote:

Originally posted by BlackGate BlackGate wrote:

Pretty poor show. After the markdown for "Austria having nothing to do with the second world war" I got in last year's flash, I'm starting to reconsider the value of spending cash on NYCM.

you are kidding. you must be kidding.

Nope - I still have the comments, and here they are in all their glory (no idea what "30" means here....). Either way the judge had no clue about the British Expeditionary Force in France after the Anschluss. I thought about appealing but it'd have made no difference, just useless and ill-informed judging. If they don't understand something it's best for them to go and read up (and learn) rather than say "it must be wrong'. I got an Honourable Mention for this story - without this inept judge, who knows may have made the final (may not).

NEGATIVE: Citing "the Austria thing" as the reason for a need for a show of strength in France - all this is confusing. Germany invades Poland in 30 -- clouds start to move over Europe thereafter. Your dates have war forces moving well before then -- and I can't make any sense of the Austrian matter. The Polish matter is what moved Europe to war -- when Hitler's troops marched into Poland despite a pact between Hitler and Stalin saying he'd not do so.... Anyway, all that gets in the way of the story -- unfortunately. Work on those details and it will be much stronger.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Hollyvict
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 3:46pm
Did you address this on their Facebook or Twitter accounts?

-------------
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic18273_post227999.html#227999" rel="nofollow - C1 Fifty Shades More Romantic Than Twilight


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 4:04pm
Hi Holly,

This time, yes. For the above "Austria" incident, no. I think the feedback was received after the subsequent round had come and gone so I was out regardless. I was relatively new to NYCM and just thought I'd hit a one-off bad judge.




-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: lizsmith5499
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 8:54pm
it's, like, a one second google OR a basic understanding of modern history.

-------------
R1 Screenplay

https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic21090_post274684.html#274684" rel="nofollow - LOST AND LIKED


Posted By: StephwithanF
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 12:11pm
They did this for me last year.

I wrote about the american revolutionary war (i.e. Paul Revere) (hist fict) and the comments were talking about slaves escaping.

They ended up RESCORING my heat, but it didnt change the top 5.

I hope they resolved this, and if you were meant to participate in the final challenge, I hope they didnt mess that up.  

THIS is why they should score these things at LEAST a week earlier and not that weds.  Imagine you got the feed back much later only to find out that they swapped SCORES also.


-------------
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic49907_post526007.html#526007" rel="nofollow - R1 G57 What Remains


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 3:15am
Email from NYCM:

Hi,
We have heard back from our judges, and unfortunately there was a mixup in feedback and scoring as well. It appears that the stories may not have been in alphabetical order when they were downloaded which they stated may have been the reason they ended up reversing the scoring and feedback on the judging sheet. Because of this, your story "'I'll Keep You Safe and Happy" went from 14th place in the group up to 7th place. We have updated the group listing to reflect your story among the honorable mentions now.

We apologize again for the mixup and for any confusion. This is something we are trying to avoid in the future and are hoping to have a new judging system in place by the end of the year which will allow judges to read, comment, and score submissions on one screen which we hope will minimize any potential errors. We would also like to offer you free entry to a future competition for the mistake to show that we value your participation and truly are sorry for the mixup.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Ramsey
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 3:55am
Firstly congratulations on the Honourable Mention! I thought it deserved at least that placement...

I would like to say though -  although it makes us feel a bit uneasy of how these are organised, alongside our confidence with NYCM judges -  they came forward apologised and amended the scoring. They could have brushed it away and just said - actually no change.
Mistakes happen - I hope you will continue to enter for sure.


-------------
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13xLGTVmuk4mjTEsWcFrvgmOKUFoQdQi3/view" rel="nofollow - C2 Group 8 - Tis The Season


Posted By: maiaco
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 5:51am
Hi BG I've been watching this thread with some concern.  The response from NYC gives us an indication of how their scoring and feedback system works - although it leaves some mysteries too.  (If they score and leave feedback at the same time, why does the feedback take so long to get to us?).  It sounds like an overhaul of their system is in place though, and hopefully that will prevent this sort of problem arising again. 

Congratulations on your Honorable Mention, and I'm glad to read that you will be compensated by a free entry into a subsequent contest. 


-------------
No baby acorns were harmed in the writing of this story



Posted By: AbbawithanI
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 5:54am
Wow -- that is beyond the worst. Glad to hear you're getting a free entry though, and congrats on the honorable mention o.o

-------------
http://forums.nycmidnight.com/r1-g6-a-winning-advantage-spy_topic12436.html" rel="nofollow - R1/G6:A Winning Advantage


Posted By: StephwithanF
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 8:12am
This makes me wary .... 

WHAT IF ... He was actually supposed to score HIGHER, but rather than admit they messed up, just bumped him to Honorable Mention and gave him a free entry?

I mean they rescored my heat last year and didn't give people a free entry (at least that I am aware of).

Anyway, I still believe that you were robbed.  The problem is, without reading the other stories, I can't actually prove that you were.



-------------
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic49907_post526007.html#526007" rel="nofollow - R1 G57 What Remains


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 8:20am
This is the problem, it's not a transparent process. I think the current model they have invites problems, and certainly makes them harder to resolve.

-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Reez
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 9:41am
Originally posted by StephwithanF StephwithanF wrote:

This makes me wary .... 

WHAT IF ... He was actually supposed to score HIGHER, but rather than admit they messed up, just bumped him to Honorable Mention and gave him a free entry?

I mean they rescored my heat last year and didn't give people a free entry (at least that I am aware of).

Anyway, I still believe that you were robbed.  The problem is, without reading the other stories, I can't actually prove that you were.

 
I had the same thought...
 
I do wish that BG had been given a place in the final regardless. I think the general forum consensus was that his screenplay deserved to go through and I can't imagine that there would have been any objection under the circumstances. Would it really matter if there was one extra finalist?
 
It also worries me that it took so long to resolve this, surely this could have been prioritised to make sure he could compete, had the results placed him in the top five.
 
I am sure that we all accept that mistakes can be made and I'm not keen on the judge bashing, we are all human after all, but 7th reeks of convenience; 6th would have been too close for comfort and so, had it been my call, I'd have added him to the finalists in the name of fair play.


-------------
MFC/Final https://rb.gy/iboxr" rel="nofollow - A Whistle and a Cry
MFC250/R1 https://forums.nycmidnight.com/r1-g13-expecting-ghost-story_topic57098.html" rel="nofollow - Expecting


Posted By: DBA Lehane
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 11:46am
The very first script I ever submitted here (SSC 2010) got really strong feedback from forum peers but was absolutely panned by the judges.  It was a war time horror story...and there were questionable comments the Nazi final solution which showed a judge or judges had either no concept of history or just failed to read it properly.  So I know and feel your pain, Paul - but I'm with Scarlet on this - I enter for the fun of meeting prompts ultimately - the feedback is always subjective.  Of course, it doesn't excuse the errors you've experienced...but I bet you've had stories place badly before that someone else would have scored well and vice versa.  If you satisfy yourself, that's the real achievement.

-------------
Screenplay Challenge 2020 Finalist.
SSC 2014 Finalist.
FFC 2015 4th Placed Finalist.


Posted By: Schrifty
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 4:46pm
" Because of this, your story "'I'll Keep You Safe and Happy" went from 14th place in the group up to 7th place."

That's... quite a jump.  And holy cow, if you had a bad score combined with that judge we saw awhile back who was just cutting and pasting their feedback for all stories, how would you even know there was a mistake? 

If they can't correctly judge and score a contest this big maybe they need to put a cap on the number of participants.  Not feeling like we're getting our money's worth.


-------------
MFC2019: https://cutt.ly/qeiQSvD" rel="nofollow - R1 G4: Cat Got Your Tongue (Fairy Tale) 2nd Place
MFC2019: https://shorturl.at/oyJX9" rel="nofollow - R2 G16: Second Chances (SciFi)


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 6:48pm
Thanks all for your support and feedback. NYCM have advised they are changing their spreadsheet process for judging. I really hope they do, and that they introduce proper checking, as not only our work but the competition's reputation relies on getting these things right.

DBA - just in reference to your point above, I'm not overly concerned with the feedback, but more the scoring itself, which wouldn't have come to light without the feedback being sent out incorrectly. If writer's are putting the effort in (and paying!), I think they need to be judged accurately.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: DBA Lehane
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:36am
Ultimately all of this is subjective, be it feedback or scoring. What's makes the difference between an 11 point story and a 10 point, as an example?  

Unless the whole process is made completely transparent - ie every story made available to read alongside how the judges arrived at their scores - you're always going to be relying on blind faith most of the time.  And even if it is made 100% transparent, people are still going to disagree with what are subjective opinions.  

None of that forgives the mess-up they've made here - but if you worry too much about the feedback or the scoring or both then it's always going to drive you crazy.  After all, I've had submissions score so much higher than I thought they deserved...and I doubt I'm alone there. But how many of us question the judging in those circumstances?

Ultimately, those who come back time and time again, do so because they are enjoying the buzz of writing to prompts rather than what score they get or what the feedback says.  Generally those who are here to massage egos and polish reputations end up disappointed and rarely return.



-------------
Screenplay Challenge 2020 Finalist.
SSC 2014 Finalist.
FFC 2015 4th Placed Finalist.


Posted By: BlackGate
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:53am
Quite Darren, but obviously there's a difference between subjective judging and systematic errors. As with any competition, judges don't enter into correspondence regarding subjective decisions and rightly so.

For this reason I don't worry about the feedback and scoring too much (life's too short). I wrote a sci-fi script called The Glass Chair - (still probably my best effort to date!) - and it disappeared without a trace in the results (I got feedback that the "ending was too similar to Lucy", a film I've never seen..) and whilst pretty disappointed, I took it on the chin.

What we should flag up are obvious systematic errors, which I don't think we should just let go - both for the good of competitors and for the reputation of the contest. We all pay good cash to enter, and put a lot of work in. Any competition's organisers need to make sure they're operating correctly too.


-------------
Micro 250 R1 - The Iron Harvest
https://forums.nycmidnight.com/topic51650_post547077.html#547077" rel="nofollow - Micro 250 R2 - The Phantom


Posted By: Levi
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:50pm
Just browsing the forums and I came across this. Sorry to bring up old news, but this was my first time participating and I had a similar experience. I didn't make it to R3 as I only made honorable mention with my R2 script, but the judge who seemed to hate my submission would criticize things that weren't in my script. The one thing that really stood out is when he or she claimed that I had two montages and that's "too many for a five page script" or something along those lines. I did not have two montages.

Anyhow, it's all in the past now. Just thought I'd share. I did not email NYC about it, but I left a note in when I was asked to rate the feedback.


Posted By: stephenmatlock
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 4:51pm
Yeah, I have to treat this as a fun competition where skill helps, but ultimately whether the judge got cut off on the way to work or got a bad cup of coffee or had a fight with their spouse seems to have as much influence, if not more, as a well-crafted story.

I got HM for R2 on a story, with a negative comment of "Pull up the RESERVE." Which, as you might think, isn't actionable feedback.

Oh well. It's the fun and the camaraderie, not the winning. Right?


-------------
Pithy sayings are for the apt. For a longer message, you need a condo.



Posted By: Scarlet Screenwriter
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 8:20pm

It's like school teachers ... they have a set number of key phrases and they just cut and paste.  Quality judging.

You can tell when you get a judge who really read your piece and made a considered response?








Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net