Feedback from judge 1807 |
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Schrifty
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Excellent point. I never really thought about why I critique, or what I'm hoping to tell the author. Reflecting on that, for me personally it's the worst feeling to submit a piece for publication and get "Sorry, not for us" over and over again with no encouragement or insight into what's not working. So when I critique I always try to say first and foremost "If I were an editor, here's what I'd ask you to fix before I would publish this." Your notes about objective facts vs subjectivity in critiques are very helpful when deciding how to phrase what you want to say to a writer for maximum impact. I try to preface anything that's subjective with "It may be my preference..." but I will keep what you said in mind for the future and try to focus more on universal suggestions, or note what may be a market trend preference that might make something more or less publishable. |
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MattrickBT
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 15 Jul 2017 Location: Oshawa Status: Offline Points: 1270 |
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I think the one thing lacking in all this critique of the judge's critique is it seems they are only allowed to say so much. I'm sure the judges could all say a whole lot more than what we actually receive.
Criticising a story objectively is impossible. Someone on rogerebert.com posted this in response to people wanting an 'objective review' of the new Kingsman movie over one that's nothing but opinion:
The only things that are objective fact that we can review in a story is spelling and grammar, really, and even grammar has a lot of wriggle room in terms of style. In the end, ALL reviews and criticisms are subjective. There is no need to say anything like 'in my opinion' or 'it's my preference' because everything in this review is my opinion, and any suggestions are my preference. If I say 'this movie sucks' and someone tells me 'that's just your opinion, not fact' (happens all the time)...well, yeah! You can tell it's my opinion because I just said it, and my opinion is that the movie sucks. The idea that we have to constantly point out that our opinion is our opinion is a little ridiculous. Any opinion on anything subjective is opinion. The one on the other end of the criticism's job is to remember this. Edited by MattrickBT - 21 Sep 2017 at 3:55pm |
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Cowyoga
NYC Midnight Regular Joined: 02 Feb 2017 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 274 |
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A review of a completed work that one can now spend money to see and feedback of a work in progress are different things, I would say. In saying "this movie sucks" I'm stating an opinion, of course. It's unlikely that I'm offering it directly to the creators and, if my job is reviewing films, my contract is not with the creators but with the potential viewers. If I'm reading the script prior to it being pitched with intent to help the writer make it the best script it can be, my opinion that it sucks is useless without offering insight into why it sucked. And if my goal is to help, I'm not going to double down and be a dick about it. I'm going to recognize the vulnerability of the person offering their unfinished work for criticism, respect them enough as a person to consider my words carefully, and honor them as an artist by being honest. It just really isn't that hard to focus on my intent and align my actions with it. And unless my intent is to nullify my words by using a stronger than necessary tone, this means curating the package as well as the contents of the message.
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FFC Ch2 Gr63 Not in My Back Yard (15 pts)
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Schrifty
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I mean, you have a point, but some opinions are more universal than others and how you express them is the difference between constructive criticism and bitching. For example: "Your story was boring."- Great feedback dude, how am I supposed to apply that? What does that mean in terms of what I need to fix? vs. "The pacing was off in this, taking too long to get to the meat of the conflict. Consider cutting the first scene and jumping right to the part where the action happens." or "I wasn't invested in your characters because I didn't find their flaws relatable. An unlikeable character can still be a worthy protagonist but your readers will need to connect with them in some way to see it through to the end." or "I've seen this premise before and unfortunately the story didn't add anything new for me. Try to break beyond the genre conventions and tropes when possible." In the end, "boring" is still subjective but it's the *why* portion to explain yourself that uses demonstrable examples that the author can examine and revise if they so choose. |
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Suave
NYC Midnight Black Belt Joined: 25 Jan 2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 25027 |
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I appreciate all this input, this is constructive. Wonder how we could get this to, "Dear 1807" Unfortunately, I did not post a story to the forum for the second challenge, not because I was so offended by the feedback, lol, but because I have been traveling and really hate the genre of "Spy" and just could not get my head around it. I did not write a story. I wish you all good luck on your stories.
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ShadowBeast
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 889 |
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The judges numbers permit you to give feedback to the contest runners on the specific judges. Might be worth a shot. After all, the numbering system came about because of a deluge of contestant feedback. |
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R1A tightly packed parcel of contents that leave you wanting--which a publisher told me made her editing day. Suck it judges!
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MattrickBT
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 15 Jul 2017 Location: Oshawa Status: Offline Points: 1270 |
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To me, no criticism is bad criticism. It's impossible to receive bad criticism unless it only says "I liked/disliked it" or "It was good/bad" as they tell you nothing except positive or negative. I'll take "It was boring" over all but the first of your examples. It's non-specific, but at least it tells me how the story made them feel: bored. But there are plenty of bad ways to take criticism. I believe so long as the one receiving the criticism can tell it is honest and lacking malice, there shouldn't be a problem. But even then, it's easy to perceive malice where none exists or is intended. Perception is a tricky devil. |
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Suave
NYC Midnight Black Belt Joined: 25 Jan 2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 25027 |
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Well thought out! |
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Schrifty
NYC Midnight Addict Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I'm glad you're able to find value in all the criticism you receive, regardless of how it's presented. Not everyone can. It's not easy, I admit that I've had a couple times I've had to walk away from criticism until I could distance myself from my work and view it more objectively. Given that you can't anticipate how your comments will be received sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution. I mean, within reason. Some people will take any criticism badly, no matter how it's presented and well, nothing you can do about that. You can only control your end of that exchange. |
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sootfoot5
NYC Midnight Black Belt Joined: 04 Apr 2008 Location: outer space man Status: Offline Points: 6638 |
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So if you received negative criticism but it was done in a funny way would that be okay? Like, if a judge, instead of being harsh, joked with you about how he or she thought you needed improvement instead of saying "you suck" would that be better?It seems like it might, but are judges supposed to joke? No.
But then, on the same point, some people might say that comedy groups, like Sat Night Live, are criticizing the President when they do parodies of him. Do you consider parody to be criticism? It is usually done to make a point even though it is done in a comedic manner. How do you feel about that? I appreciate what you say about erring on the side of caution, but then, how can another person know a person's feelings when they've been judging or doing whatever, to people the same way for years? Then one person suddenly cries about it. If you put yourself out there and want to be judged, isn't it rather like putting your words here in the forum -- that people may turn around and agree with you, laugh at you, whatever, because you put them in our "little home of a general public's eye." I'm just throwing out ideas and concepts. Just wondering what you think. Edited by sootfoot5 - 22 Sep 2017 at 4:44pm |
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