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Feedback from judge 1807

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Schrifty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schrifty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Cowyoga Cowyoga wrote:

Originally posted by nixie nixie wrote:

yes - that! Nicely written Cowyoga.

And yes - the 'examples' in the article go a bit further than I would - but the core message - about responsibility for choosing your words so that they can be heard - seemed to apply. :)


Absolutely. If you (universal you) know your delivery will eliminate your message, why are you delivering it at all? I can see two possibilities. You're either very bad at your intended role and don't care to improve, or you are unaware that your intention and your impact are misaligned. One of these is fixable. The other is between you and Jesus.


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Excellent point.  I never really thought about why I critique, or what I'm hoping to tell the author.  Reflecting on that, for me personally it's the worst feeling to submit a piece for publication and get "Sorry, not for us" over and over again with no encouragement or insight into what's not working.  So when I critique I always try to say first and foremost "If I were an editor, here's what I'd ask you to fix before I would publish this." 

Your notes about objective facts vs subjectivity in critiques are very helpful when deciding how to phrase what you want to say to a writer for maximum impact.  I try to preface anything that's subjective with "It may be my preference..." but I will keep what you said in mind for the future and try to focus more on universal suggestions, or note what may be a market trend preference that might make something more or less publishable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattrickBT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 3:51pm
I think the one thing lacking in all this critique of the judge's critique is it seems they are only allowed to say so much. I'm sure the judges could all say a whole lot more than what we actually receive.

Criticising a story objectively is impossible. Someone on rogerebert.com posted this in response to people wanting an 'objective review' of the new Kingsman movie over one that's nothing but opinion:

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KINGSMAN: THE GOLDEN CIRCLE is a film that is 141 minutes long. It was written by Jane Goldman and Matthew Vaughn and directed by Matthew Vaughn. It is a sequel to KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE, which is also a movie (129 mins.) and was likewise written by Jane Goldman and Matthew Vaughn and directed by Matthew Vaughn, which was itself an adaption of a comic book series that was created by Mark Millar and Dave Gibbons.

KINGSMAN: THE GOLDEN CIRCLE exists, and is a product that you can both see and hear. It has a number of actors in it, most of whom give performances as characters, but some of whom exist as themselves. This list of actors you will be able to see and hear on screen includes Taron Egerton, Colin Firth, Julianne Moore, Mark Strong, Halle Berry, Pedro Pascal, Channing Tatum, Jeff Bridges, Bruce Greenwood, Emily Watson, Edward Holcroft, Sophie Cookson, Michael Gambon, Hanna Alström, Poppy Delevingne, and others, many of whom are in the role of 'extras', or people who don't have lines or direction but who exist to fill out the background of the film.

KINGSMAN: THE GOLDEN CIRCLE, I must again stress, is a film. While it is has real things that exists in the world, its events are not real.

The only things that are objective fact that we can review in a story is spelling and grammar, really, and even grammar has a lot of wriggle room in terms of style. In the end, ALL reviews and criticisms are subjective.

There is no need to say anything like 'in my opinion' or 'it's my preference' because everything in this review is my opinion, and any suggestions are my preference. If I say 'this movie sucks' and someone tells me 'that's just your opinion, not fact' (happens all the time)...well, yeah! You can tell it's my opinion because I just said it, and my opinion is that the movie sucks. The idea that we have to constantly point out that our opinion is our opinion is a little ridiculous. Any opinion on anything subjective is opinion. The one on the other end of the criticism's job is to remember this. 



Edited by MattrickBT - 21 Sep 2017 at 3:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Cowyoga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 5:19pm
A review of a completed work that one can now spend money to see and feedback of a work in progress are different things, I would say. In saying "this movie sucks" I'm stating an opinion, of course. It's unlikely that I'm offering it directly to the creators and, if my job is reviewing films, my contract is not with the creators but with the potential viewers. If I'm reading the script prior to it being pitched with intent to help the writer make it the best script it can be, my opinion that it sucks is useless without offering insight into why it sucked. And if my goal is to help, I'm not going to double down and be a dick about it. I'm going to recognize the vulnerability of the person offering their unfinished work for criticism, respect them enough as a person to consider my words carefully, and honor them as an artist by being honest. It just really isn't that hard to focus on my intent and align my actions with it. And unless my intent is to nullify my words by using a stronger than necessary tone, this means curating the package as well as the contents of the message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schrifty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by MattrickBT MattrickBT wrote:

The only things that are objective fact that we can review in a story is spelling and grammar, really, and even grammar has a lot of wriggle room in terms of style. In the end, ALL reviews and criticisms are subjective.

There is no need to say anything like 'in my opinion' or 'it's my preference' because everything in this review is my opinion, and any suggestions are my preference. If I say 'this movie sucks' and someone tells me 'that's just your opinion, not fact' (happens all the time)...well, yeah! You can tell it's my opinion because I just said it, and my opinion is that the movie sucks. The idea that we have to constantly point out that our opinion is our opinion is a little ridiculous. Any opinion on anything subjective is opinion. The one on the other end of the criticism's job is to remember this. 



I mean, you have a point, but some opinions are more universal than others and how you express them is the difference between constructive criticism and bitching.  For example:

"Your story was boring."- Great feedback dude, how am I supposed to apply that?  What does that mean in terms of what I need to fix?
vs.
"The pacing was off in this, taking too long to get to the meat of the conflict.  Consider cutting the first scene and jumping right to the part where the action happens." or "I wasn't invested in your characters because I didn't find their flaws relatable.  An unlikeable character can still be a worthy protagonist but your readers will need to connect with them in some way to see it through to the end." or "I've seen this premise before and unfortunately the story didn't add anything new for me.  Try to break beyond the genre conventions and tropes when possible."

In the end, "boring" is still subjective but it's the *why* portion to explain yourself that uses demonstrable examples that the author can examine and revise if they so choose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 7:59pm
I appreciate all this input, this is constructive.  Wonder how we could get this to, "Dear 1807"  Unfortunately, I did not post a story to the forum for the second challenge, not because I was so offended by the feedback, lol, but because I have been traveling and really hate the genre of "Spy" and just could not get my head around it.  I did not write a story.  I wish you all good luck on your stories.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ShadowBeast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I appreciate all this input, this is constructive.  Wonder how we could get this to, "Dear 1807"  Unfortunately, I did not post a story to the forum for the second challenge, not because I was so offended by the feedback, lol, but because I have been traveling and really hate the genre of "Spy" and just could not get my head around it.  I did not write a story.  I wish you all good luck on your stories.


The judges numbers permit you to give feedback to the contest runners on the specific judges. Might be worth a shot. After all, the numbering system came about because of a deluge of contestant feedback.
R1A tightly packed parcel of contents that leave you wanting--which a publisher told me made her editing day. Suck it judges!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattrickBT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Schrifty Schrifty wrote:


I mean, you have a point, but some opinions are more universal than others and how you express them is the difference between constructive criticism and bitching.  For example:

"Your story was boring."- Great feedback dude, how am I supposed to apply that?  What does that mean in terms of what I need to fix?
vs.
"The pacing was off in this, taking too long to get to the meat of the conflict.  Consider cutting the first scene and jumping right to the part where the action happens." or "I wasn't invested in your characters because I didn't find their flaws relatable.  An unlikeable character can still be a worthy protagonist but your readers will need to connect with them in some way to see it through to the end." or "I've seen this premise before and unfortunately the story didn't add anything new for me.  Try to break beyond the genre conventions and tropes when possible."

In the end, "boring" is still subjective but it's the *why* portion to explain yourself that uses demonstrable examples that the author can examine and revise if they so choose.


To me, no criticism is bad criticism. It's impossible to receive bad criticism unless it only says "I liked/disliked it" or "It was good/bad" as they tell you nothing except positive or negative. I'll take "It was boring" over all but the first of your examples. It's non-specific, but at least it tells me how the story made them feel: bored. But there are plenty of bad ways to take criticism.  I believe so long as the one receiving the criticism can tell it is honest and lacking malice, there shouldn't be a problem. But even then, it's easy to perceive malice where none exists or is intended. Perception is a tricky devil.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 2:32am
Originally posted by Cowyoga Cowyoga wrote:

All right, I'm going to weigh in more constructively than my previous appearances in this thread.

I read the linked article, and I agree with most of it. But I think some of the advice goes too far into kid gloving. A spelling error is a spelling error. "I think you meant incessant" is a bit too far. "Typo, paragraph 2: spelling. "Incessant."

I have worked professionally for ten years as an executive coach. A great deal of the work I did with leaders was around providing feedback that gets results. And the most important piece of guidance I could offer them was this: focus on behaviors, focus on observable facts, and don't say it if it doesn't fall into either of those categories.

Example: John is lazy and not committed.
Neither of these are observable facts or behaviors. Laziness is a label you can't apply unles you apply it to yourself.
Fix: John was late to the last five meetings, his work is not as thorough as that of his peers, and two customers cited him as the reason for leaving.
These are facts. They are indisputable. John may not have intended to lose two clients and he might argue it, but it is a fact that his being late is the reason those clients gave.

Applying this to 1807:
The prose here is so insistently descriptive in emotional terms, I was reluctant to go with it.
-Okay. When we're talking crit, we can't eliminate opinions bc the majority of it will be based on style, taste, and preference. From this we form opinions, and this is what the judges are giving us. So for 1807, the descriptive prose was a turn off. Valid. Though I'd coach him away from phrasing like "insistently descriptive" if he were my client. "Insistently" is dangerously close to assigning meaning to the writer's motivation, and that's out of line.

The narrative tells a lot without actually showing anything; the tone is strikes a strange balance between detached and over-involved.
-The second half of this needs to offer more if it's going to be included. Also, lose the word strange. Strange is subjective. If the balance it strikes is both detached and over-involved, and it's important enough to mention, include something you observed to back it up. The writer needs to understand the feedback in order to find value in it. If your feedback can't be applied in a meaningful way, it exists for you, not the author.

I feel the desperation of the author trying to infuse the story with horror, dread, and terror, but the oversimplified structure prevents the tale from being engaging, engrossing, or disturbing.
-You feel no such thing. You're assigning meaning to something you don't have enough information to interpret in this way. What are you hoping to convey to the author? Focus on that and rewrite this in a way that adds rather than detracts value.

The ending feels like a cheat; the protagonist's survival didn't impact me one way or the other.
-What tells you the lack of impact is due to the author and not you? Expand.


Well thought out!  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schrifty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 11:25am
Originally posted by MattrickBT MattrickBT wrote:




To me, no criticism is bad criticism. It's impossible to receive bad criticism unless it only says "I liked/disliked it" or "It was good/bad" as they tell you nothing except positive or negative. I'll take "It was boring" over all but the first of your examples. It's non-specific, but at least it tells me how the story made them feel: bored. But there are plenty of bad ways to take criticism.  I believe so long as the one receiving the criticism can tell it is honest and lacking malice, there shouldn't be a problem. But even then, it's easy to perceive malice where none exists or is intended. Perception is a tricky devil.




I'm glad you're able to find value in all the criticism you receive, regardless of how it's presented.  Not everyone can.  It's not easy, I admit that I've had a couple times I've had to walk away from criticism until I could distance myself from my work and view it more objectively.  Given that you can't anticipate how your comments will be received sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.  I mean, within reason.  Some people will take any criticism badly, no matter how it's presented and well, nothing you can do about that.  You can only control your end of that exchange.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sootfoot5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 4:43pm
So if you received negative criticism but it was done in a funny way would that be okay?  Like, if a judge, instead of being harsh, joked with you about how he or she thought you needed improvement instead of saying "you suck" would that be better?It seems like it might, but are judges supposed to joke?  No.

But then, on the same point, some people might say that comedy groups, like Sat Night Live, are criticizing the President when they do parodies of him.  Do you consider parody to be criticism?  It is usually done to make a point even though it is done in a comedic manner.  How do you feel about that? 

I appreciate what you say about erring on the side of caution, but then, how can another person know a person's feelings when they've been judging or doing whatever, to people the same way for years?  Then one person suddenly cries about it.  If you put yourself out there and want to be judged, isn't it rather like putting your words here in the forum -- that people may turn around and agree with you, laugh at you, whatever, because you put them in our "little home of a general public's eye."

I'm just throwing out ideas and concepts.  Just wondering what you think.  




Edited by sootfoot5 - 22 Sep 2017 at 4:44pm
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