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nixie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:


I actually dislike the idea of two forums. I brought it up because it is an option, I suppose, but splitting causes more potential problems. Besides, I don't want to lose the sense of a whole community. 

Still - good to put it out there, either to hear alternative POVs or, if all agree, to know why we *chose not to do it :) For those reasons, I think it was  a good question for you to ask, anyway :)

Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:

Two MLs with two coordinators might be good. suave split it this time. We could begin with a split ML next year with two coordinators. I don't know if the current coordinators work full time. I do. I'd be willing to handle one of the MLs if we split it.


Speaking just for myself - Suave's experience may be different - but doing ML for FFC would be harder if it were shared.  rather than just 'ticking every new post' i would then have to make decisions about each one to determine if it were in 'my area' or 'the other person's area' - by the time that is done, i could be halfway through the task of adding it to the list. Plus - folks figuring out "whose list' to post their stuff to seems like it could get to be a nightmare. 

Setting aside "just honest mistakes" - my experience has been that some folks are more and some less tech-savvy - so just herding everyone up into getting a forum post (vs a link direct to their doc) and the right info posted is a bit of a zoo. :) Add in "figuring out which list to post to" and I think it might tip some folks into madness <3 Having everything in one place, and having the experienced folks in the forums providing added support directly to that (both through adding missed posts and through coaching new forumites) has been a good system, and a manageable one. 

[that said, I would love to hear from both Suave - as to whether he reached the same or a different conclusion - and from FFC folks to say whether this has been 'good' and sufficiently timely, with just one person doing it, etc. If I am too optimistic, don't let me live in my illusions :)]

I see how you used "coordinators" there - but just in case anyone reading is not 100% clear - the folks who maintain these Master Lists are not 'employees of NYCM' - just 'other writers who are also in the contest.' I work full time, with a 2-hr one-way commute - and I believe Suave works full time as well. :) So, tcFlash is being considerate of our volunteer time here (as opposed to "making a comment about whether we 'work full time for NYCM or are just part-timers' ").  It *is a bit to keep up but only for a week or so, and folks are patient and helpful. 

All that stuff said - the Master List concept is new - we only did it for the first time last year in FFC, and Suave expanded it here to SSC for the first time with *this year. So there have to be better ways to do it. Things that have already been discussed:
- Multiple people maintaining the (single) master List post
---[the forum software doesn't really have a permissions mechanism that allows shared ownership or editing of a post]
- posting the list outside of FFC in a multi-editor location (like someone's G-Docs)
---[concerns included privacy - to allow folks to add their own entries, we'd need to share the doc 'edit' for 'anyone who comes here'; people who link directly to their doc instead of a post losing the protection of the contestant-only forum; having to bounce back and forth between forum and someone's g-docs; losing the history (right now, you can go back and look up stories from last year, and some links are still accessible. Mostly, some writers use it to review the feedback after they have got a few months' distance from a story).

Other options?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MakiSupaStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I did not make it into round 2, but will still do a master list for it!  Just need to wait on the genre to come out.   Tongue

Came here to find out this specific piece of info.  Thanks.  You did a fantastic job with the ML, and I want to personally thank you for all your patience with me personally being new to this forum.   I personally got a lot out of giving feedback as well as receiving it.  I'd love to read the next round, even as just an ex participant helping those that advanced.  

Cool to hear.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcFlash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Suave Suave wrote:

I did not make it into round 2, but will still do a master list for it!  Just need to wait on the genre to come out.   Tongue

suave, that is a high level of commitment, and I for one do not take it for granted and do appreciate it. It will be a much smaller group too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcFlash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by nixie nixie wrote:

Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:

Here's my pat on suave's back....Great job. Thank you for making this year's SSC as enjoyable as it has been. 

Now, regarding the maintenance of the ML in the future, would two, smaller forums with an ML of their own be more effective and encourage participation?


I think, in the general scheme of things, the forums are tough to search and posts accumulate quickly.  The "most-recently-touched-post-to-the-front" logic makes it easy to miss posts, and the more random subject lines are, the harder it is to sort them in any meaningful way.  I can totally understand how 'fewer things in one place' would make that easier to wade through.  But that annoyance is the origin of the Master List.  

I don't know that 'separate forums" would be that much different, at this point, as long as someone picks up the ML task (I am "in" for FFC - if you see my Nixie nose, there will be a Master List - so kiss up to Suave to keep doing one for SSC ;) ).  Splitting into two forums *would create extra steps for those who, for example, skim the ML to find other groups that wrote in their genre, etc.

Thoughts?

I actually dislike the idea of two forums. I brought it up because it is an option, I suppose, but splitting causes more potential problems. Besides, I don't want to lose the sense of a whole community. Two MLs with two coordinators might be good. suave split it this time. We could begin with a split ML next year with two coordinators. I don't know if the current coordinators work full time. I do. I'd be willing to handle one of the MLs if we split it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Suave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 11:40pm
I did not make it into round 2, but will still do a master list for it!  Just need to wait on the genre to come out.   Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:

Here's my pat on suave's back....Great job. Thank you for making this year's SSC as enjoyable as it has been. 

Now, regarding the maintenance of the ML in the future, would two, smaller forums with an ML of their own be more effective and encourage participation?


I think, in the general scheme of things, the forums are tough to search and posts accumulate quickly.  The "most-recently-touched-post-to-the-front" logic makes it easy to miss posts, and the more random subject lines are, the harder it is to sort them in any meaningful way.  I can totally understand how 'fewer things in one place' would make that easier to wade through.  But that annoyance is the origin of the Master List.  

I don't know that 'separate forums" would be that much different, at this point, as long as someone picks up the ML task (I am "in" for FFC - if you see my Nixie nose, there will be a Master List - so kiss up to Suave to keep doing one for SSC ;) ).  Splitting into two forums *would create extra steps for those who, for example, skim the ML to find other groups that wrote in their genre, etc.

Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 9:10pm
I'll admit I've been bad this year.  I did read back reviews but very few seek outs.  I did more in flash.  perhaps it was the length that burned me out faster, or just too much going on!  But I have done less this round :( 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcFlash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 3:57am
Originally posted by nixie nixie wrote:

Originally posted by justmel justmel wrote:

I agree with Stephen.  Also, not all of the stories were necessarily listed in Sauve's list (not though any failing on his part!), and I was sad that mine was the only one in my group until I started scrolling through the forum itself and found two more.  I gave their info to Suave to add to the Master List, but I don't think those two got much feedback.  There are still nine "only children" in the ML, and I can't help wondering if some of those might have a sibling or two that they just don't know about.

Just illustrates how easy it is for stories to get 'lost' in the forums - which is why it is so helpful, when trying to maintain a master list during a period of furious activity, that the forumites come together to point out anyone who forgot (or didn't know) to share their info on the ML post to get added.

Also shows why the ML is such a neat invention - much easier to look for stuff.  

And yes - I am just sticking my Nixie nose in long enough to publicly pat Suave on the back for taking on the immense task of MLing the SSC.  It's a big job - but once it gets established, it makes it *so* much easier to ensure that stories don't get "lost in the forum" and missed!  

Here's my pat on suave's back....Great job. Thank you for making this year's SSC as enjoyable as it has been. 

Now, regarding the maintenance of the ML in the future, would two, smaller forums with an ML of their own be more effective and encourage participation?



Edited by tcFlash - 19 Mar 2017 at 3:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcFlash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 3:50am
Originally posted by michelecacano michelecacano wrote:

Originally posted by tcFlash tcFlash wrote:

First of all, was the time between submission and results longer this time than ever before? It was eight and a half weeks. I don't remember it being that long, but I might be mistaken. That would lend itself to burning people out. 

I encourage those who have been around for a while to continue offering high quality reviews and critiques, even if you offer fewer. People read those and learn how it's done. They may begin by mimicking your style and form. That's fine, as long as they go on to develop their own.

I think I'm in favor of breaking the forum up. I may not have thought that through enough, but it seems reasonable at this point.

High numbers of participants and too long a waiting period between submission and results is bound to be a killer. Add that to the old-timers being completely swamped with newcomers and you can include old-timer burnout to the issues.  It's a growth thing. We need some good ideas for handling growth.



Yes, I agree with you. Higher quality critiques are useful, both to the writer being reviewed and anyone else reading those reviews.

After finding that amazing Master List, I found it much easier to read and review works, myself (not that I've made much time for it... Soery!).
Also, we lost some old-timers who were extremely active in the past. I felt that in a big way this time. I've been around for four years, but I am not in the same league with the people I am referring to. But, it may be time for others to step up and fill the void. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcFlash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 3:46am
Originally posted by stephenmatlock stephenmatlock wrote:

Originally posted by Bookworm33 Bookworm33 wrote:

Originally posted by Josh Josh wrote:

I was actively reviewing. I stopped. Real life happened. But I would have been more apt to return to this forum when I had some spare time if people gave more than a few lines of "wow this is good - nice work" speak. It makes me feel as though I am overly critical when I leave feedback speaking to what works and what doesn't.  The last thing I want at this point is to people to see me as a rude arrogant jerk. 
This was one of the reasons I was very hesitant to post my story. During the FFC when I would read a piece that had, for example, an abundance of grammatical errors or obvious plot holes, most of the comments from reviewers would be along the lines of "I loved this! You've done such a great job!"
I wasn't sure if any of the feedback would be critical enough to help me. Fortunately, I've received some really good comments on my story.

I don't know if reviewers just don't want to upset anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, or if they just look over mistakes and inconsistencies if they like the overall content of a story. On some pieces I've reviewed this time around, things I found confusing or awkwardly written were praised by everyone else as the best elements of the stories. I'm almost beginning to question my own judgment as a writer after seeing comment after comment of "This is wonderful!" surrounding my own critiques.


This is very interesting --

My take is that by the time I get to the final form and I submit it, the things that should be fixed can't be, such as grammar/typos/plot holes/etc., so I personally try to avoid picking on those except if I can phrase it as "this didn't work for me."

During the beta process I'll point those out, but once it's final, it feels like I'm spending time on the small stuff.

But if I see a protagonist take up a crowbar in self-defense and then hit his assailant with a 2x4, I'm going to want to point that out as "I was a bit confused when Jerry picked up the crowbar and then hit Tom with a 2x4. Did you drop a sentence where he switched weapons?" That seems to be more positive than "Did you know you have a ginormous error here when Jerry's weapon changes magically?" (This is something I did in one of my novels, and only an eagle-eyed reviewer saw it--it was in the final proof!)


Stephen, I agree with you that when I finally submit, I am doing so, knowing that I have issues. But the deadline rules the day. I do go easy on some grammatical, punctuation and spelling errors. I'm looking for a great story. If I have the choice of improving my storyline or improving the grammatical part of my story, I'll opt for working on the plot and characters.
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